- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.world
- linux@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.world
- linux@lemmy.ml
Official statement regarding recent Greg’ commit 6e90b675cf942e from Serge Semin
Hello Linux-kernel community,
I am sure you have already heard the news caused by the recent Greg’ commit 6e90b675cf942e (“MAINTAINERS: Remove some entries due to various compliance requirements.”). As you may have noticed the change concerned some of the Ru-related developers removal from the list of the official kernel maintainers, including me.
The community members rightly noted that the quite short commit log contained very vague terms with no explicit change justification. No matter how hard I tried to get more details about the reason, alas the senior maintainer I was discussing the matter with haven’t given an explanation to what compliance requirements that was. I won’t cite the exact emails text since it was a private messaging, but the key words are “sanctions”, “sorry”, “nothing I can do”, “talk to your (company) lawyer”… I can’t say for all the guys affected by the change, but my work for the community has been purely volunteer for more than a year now (and less than half of it had been payable before that). For that reason I have no any (company) lawyer to talk to, and honestly after the way the patch has been merged in I don’t really want to now. Silently, behind everyone’s back, bypassing the standard patch-review process, with no affected developers/subsystem notified - it’s indeed the worse way to do what has been done. No gratitude, no credits to the developers for all these years of the devoted work for the community. No matter the reason of the situation but haven’t we deserved more than that? Adding to the GREDITS file at least, no?..
I can’t believe the kernel senior maintainers didn’t consider that the patch wouldn’t go unnoticed, and the situation might get out of control with unpredictable results for the community, if not straight away then in the middle or long term perspective. I am sure there have been plenty ways to solve the problem less harmfully, but they decided to take the easiest path. Alas what’s done is done. A bifurcation point slightly initiated a year ago has just been fully implemented. The reason of the situation is obviously in the political ground which in this case surely shatters a basement the community has been built on in the first place. If so then God knows what might be next (who else might be sanctioned…), but the implemented move clearly sends a bad signal to the Linux community new comers, to the already working volunteers and hobbyists like me.
Thus even if it was still possible for me to send patches or perform some reviews, after what has been done my motivation to do that as a volunteer has simply vanished. (I might be doing a commercial upstreaming in future though). But before saying goodbye I’d like to express my gratitude to all the community members I have been lucky to work with during all these years.
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Later in that thread:
Please accept all of our apologies for the way this was handled. A summary of the legal advice the kernel is operating under is
If your company is on the U.S. OFAC SDN lists, subject to an OFAC sanctions program, or owned/controlled by a company on the list, our ability to collaborate with you will be subject to restrictions, and you cannot be in the MAINTAINERS file.
Anyone who wishes to can query the list here: https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov/
Which is exactly what anyone who wasn’t wanting to just snort some concentrated outrage knew was the case.
And you can argue as to if OFAC list should apply to things like this or not, but the problem is that the enforcement options for OFAC violations include ‘stomp you into the ground until you’re powder’, most people are just going to comply.
Also from that thread.
Again, we’re really sorry it’s come to this, but all of the Linux infrastructure and a lot of its maintainers are in the US and we can’t ignore the requirements of US law. We are hoping that this action alone will be sufficient to satisfy the US Treasury department in charge of sanctions and we won’t also have to remove any existing patches.
US law CAN’T apply on foreign ground, period. Nothing can. Just because they can bully their way around that, doesn’t mean they are right.
And it should be only fair that Israeli maintainers be removed as well.
They should also rethink their infrastructure policy and whether they still want it on US soil.
This is all wishful thinking, I know, but this just goes to show you how they have absolutely no backbone whatsoever. As if anybody is gonna touch the Linux kernel and jeopardize the safety of millions of systems. We all know that is never going to happen, but they still bent over for the US… so typical… just goes to show you how little backbone everyone has, including Linus.
Oh, and don’t get me started on the Russia/Finland history comment…
But folks who work for US companies building weapons for Israel are totes okay?
It’s honestly fucking wild that an internationally developed open source project has to play by the US government’s rules when the US government is out here helping commit genocide right the fuck now.
Like, look in the fucking mirror on this why don’t you.
Maybe the better rule is that if you work for a company that produces weaponry for war you shouldn’t be allowed to contribute, period.
Maybe the better rule is that if you work for a company that produces weaponry for war you shouldn’t be allowed to contribute, period.
This is something I can actually get behind on.
But, you see, there is just one teeency weeency tiny problem with that. They spend trucks of cash on whatever they deem will give them what they want, including funding organizations that they profit from.
Wow, I didn’t know that being a Linux/open source contributor meant you don’t have to follow your country’s laws.
It’s developed internationally but devs still reside somewhere and have to abide by the rules at that place. Linux in this case being represented by an US entity means they have to follow the gov’s sanctions. If you want more or less of those, that’s where (the government) you act.
You may be amazed to learn that there aren’t many international sanctions against the USA at this time, but I imagine you could probably get into legal trouble for collaborating with Americans if you’re in, I don’t know, North Korea maybe.
It’s crazy how the US Treasury isn’t sanctioning companies for working on US government approved contracts. /s
It would be if Blinken weren’t burying government reports proving that it legally must.
Then it would be sanctioning Israel, not defense contractors.
U.S. law requires the government to cut off weapons shipments to countries that prevent the delivery of U.S.-backed humanitarian aid. Israel has been largely dependent on American bombs and other weapons in Gaza since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attacks.
Yes and? You keep arguing against things I’m not saying.
I’d be perfectly happy if we told Bibi to fuck off. But the US government isn’t going to impose sanctions on itself.
The genocide has such wide support in the USA community and defense companies ( irregardless of the louder minority of people protesting it)
That if there were justice, then many other people and organizations would have similar treatment and be kicked
We can’t get away from politics, or limits, but if I will point out the hypocrisy
You may be amazed to learn that the reason there aren’t many international sanctions against the USA at this time is not because the USA is a beacon of peace, freedom, democracy, and national sovereignty. Because the US is very much not that.
US isn’t helping fund a genocide in Israel or anything! /s
Address your complaints to the government of the USA. Or, if you have the right to do so, cast a vote in the upcoming election there to prevent it taking a big step in the opposite direction from a world in which it might consider anything like similar sanctions against Israel.
“Write a stern letter to a foreign government” and “Vote against ‘very probable 101% genocide’ and for ‘proven 100% genocide’” are some weak tea, and beside the point being made.
Your particular complaints are better addressed to almighty God I suppose. So long as you don’t blame linux kernel devs for them it’s all the same to me.
It sucks if well meaning people are caught up in this, but it also sucks if you’re living in the aggressor state of an ongoing war.
So shouldn’t this also include the US and the many countries (most of Western Europe, plus others) involved in coalitions bombing the middle east and elsewhere?
Yes, if the issue was a moral one. This issue, however, is a legal one.
Then it isn’t about living in an aggressor state, is it?
Whataboutism isn’t a very convincing argument.
It is if you’re biased.
Yeah must suck to live in Israel.
Are they legally bound to follow any sanction list in their dealings? If so Linux foundation should consider move out of the US jurisdiction, because the santion load is just going to increase and more countries will be included.
If they are just doing this because of a political fad and partaking “the current thing” then they are just voluntarily digging their own and the linux foundation’s grave.
because the santion load is just going to increase and more countries will be included.
Not to mention more stupid shit, like not being able to visit the US if your wife is Russian, cuz… you know, you might be a spy.
If they are just doing this because of a political fad and partaking “the current thing” then they are just voluntarily digging their own and the linux foundation’s grave.
My 2 cents. Nobody is asking them to do anything… yet… and they probably never will, but… they’re scared shitless and they would rather comply, even for things no one is asking of them yet and is dubious whether or not they’re even covered by the sanctions, than show some backbone.
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There are no sanctions against these individuals. More importantly who gives a shit about what the US is whining about today or tomorrow, foss software is more important than whatever petty dispute the US egged on this time.
Russia invaded a sovereign nation…but that’s a petty dispute…are you sure you’re on the right instance? Sounds like you need to recreate your account here on ml…
Yes, it’s a petty dispute. The US has done the same every 3-6 years for the last 200. It’s a common occurrence for empires to do whatever they want. It has nothing to do with random citizens contributing to volunteer projects based in entirely disconnected countries.
The USA isn’t in this discussion right now. Russia invaded Ukraine and is trying to kill Ukrainians to take over their country. Iraq and Afghanistan wasn’t a petty dispute either. You tankies are shitty people.
If you want to rely in the logic that invading sovereign nations justifies this, you will have to discuss the US, the major instigator of war.
Sounds like you are just upset that your complete lack of consistency has been pointed out.
I don’t give a shit about the Russian state. I’m not a tankie, I don’t care about random petty disputes between empires and whoever pissed them off. Let the unrelated people collaborate on the things that represent the end of such empires in peace.
A full scale war on a sovereign nation is not a random petty dispute…the fuck is wrong with you?
Are we going to remove Israel maintainers from the list since IDF soldiers are using Palestinians as human shields?
Oh, no, because US is okay with that genocide?
It’s really more about how clearly fucking hypocritical it is.
So you think they’re against the invasion of Ukraine, and would like to see Israel hit with sanctions as well?
Because that wasn’t the impression I was getting.
I think we can all agree that what Russia and Israel are doing is horrific. Israel should be sanctioned as well, rather than letting Russia off…
That’s literally what I suggested elsewhere here: If you work for ANY company in ANY country that produces weapons for war for ANY government, that they shouldn’t be allowed to contribute.
Because that at the very least would be consistent.
Wouldn’t that stop nearly every country from being able to contribute?
Sounds like a convoluted way of saying to just let the Russians off, veiled as some over the top “consistency” argument.
Maybe let’s do that tho, and just start with Russia 😆
Way to purposefully misread it.
The whole issue is that the Russians work for companies with sanctions against them.
So, treat all companies involved in war the same way, and you’ll never run into this hypocritical issue again.
There’s plenty of companies (like Valve) who don’t directly produce weapons of war or have contracts with their governments for war-services who contribute to Linux that could still do so, and plenty of individuals who don’t work for military and military adjacent companies to contribute.
Acting like removing people who work at companies that contribute to wars will mean no one can contribute is obviously a grossly exaggerated misinterpretation.
That’s not completely unreasonable tbh, but I still think the current sanctions are fair if not perfect.
I didn’t purposely misread, this part was just a bit unclear:
If you work for ANY company in ANY country that produces weapons for war
Looking at what you quoted, that’s fair and can see how you misread it as such. I am sorry I said that it was purposeful.
Funnily enough, the steam deck has been used during the conflict to control remote weapons. So they could be implicated in this if you go far enough
You could use a knife to kill someone as well… hell, an umbrella as well.
Google or Microsoft employees wouldn’t be able to contribute, even if they’re not working with any weapons manufacturer during their entire career there.
The idea is great in theory but isn’t in feasible in rl.
You’re saying it like they have a choice.
Besides, stuff like this should not be constrained by the boundaries of nationalities.
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Smart dude. He knows exactly why. To pretend that he doesn’t is a sham. This whole “I don’t know whyyyyyy” face he’s put on is an absolute facade.
In all honesty, I’m fairly certain at the very moment he found out about it, he was puzzled. But, after reading 10 other Russians got removed as well, I’m fairly certain he knew, but wanted proof and closure. I would like both as well to be honest.
It’s odd your racism is this out and open.
“Russian Sanctions” due to Russia invading a peaceful nation and killing Ukrainians is not a race of people.
Russia is a country. Not a race.
a peaceful nation
Let’s not go overboard.
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences
- Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide
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What definition of race are you going by?
Oxford dictionary: “a group of people who share the same language, history, culture, etc.”
Merrian Webster dictionary: "any one of the groups that humans are often divided into based on physical traits regarded as common among people of shared ancestry
Also: a group of people sharing a common cultural, geographical, linguistic, or religious origin or background"
Are you really still using debunked race science concepts in 2024?
Just because you group people based on a different construct does not mean you aren’t racist. What’s next, islamophobia is okay too?
What’s next, islamophobia is okay too?
Of course not.
But I sure as hell might start asking questions like “yo, where you from” on PRs… because Linus made that OK, so… IDK, I don’t really like US citizens and Israelis, so… oh why the hell not 🤷. /s
Individual random people are not mentioned in the sanctions and have little to nothing to do with the state, just like the US. The foundation kicking out US maintainers during the Iraq war when the US was indiscriminately killing over a million Iraqi civilians would have been equally ridiculous.
So no, they don’t and shouldn’t have assumed this is due to sanctions. It’s free software they volunteering to help. There is no profit motive. They are not state actors. And most importantly to you,not all Russians are bad evil whatever slur you want to call them, you racist.
Linux has a lot of cryptography related to it, so yeah - it’s sanctions related. And these maintainers were all people who were contributing from within Russia or have ties to Russia.
The Russian troll tactic of calling someone racist to get them to back down from an argument is hilarious so I’m gonna just go ahead and agree with you. I’m racist against war. I’m racist against human suffering. Oh no, I’m such a racist. Oh no whatever will I do?
Oh that’s right, I’m gonna live my life and be happy about opposing Russian aggression against the Ukrainian people! Slava Ukraini
I’m racist against war. I’m racist against human suffering. Oh no, I’m such a racist. Oh no whatever will I do?
It would be nice to also be racist against the Israel/Palestine conflict as well… or any other conflict, wouldn’t you agree?
The Russian troll tactic of calling someone racist
Oh, are you an expert on Russian troll tactics? No, you are not. What you are is a conspiracy theorist.
Frankly I’m losing my patience with this lazy, bullshit, thought-terminating cliché.
Good for you, these people, like yourself, have nothing to do with the Russian state, assuming so because of their race and nationality is racist.
Thanks for playing, conservative.
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Living in a place does not mean you have anything to do with the Russian state, assuming otherwise due to someone’s race is racist.
Of course, if you’re living in Russia, it’s dangerous to state anything other than support for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
That doesn’t mean it isn’t cringeworthy to watch someone awkwardly dance around it, trying to ignore it while complaining about (checks notes) losing a bit of reputation over an unnecessary war that their country started and which literally cost thousands of lives.
Any Russian who stands up against that is incredibly brave. The others, just different levels of sad. Non-Russians who support Putin are the worst.
I understand why you’d want FOSS to not care abot borders, wars and politics and that is noble. But to call this comment racism, comes across as a veiled show of support for Putin. As if critiquing his invasion is a racist act that hurts the Russian people. Putins invasion is hurting the Russian people. Not this comment.
I bet you wouldn’t have the same response if Israeli maintainers are being removed.
You’re welcome to fork Linux at any time 👋 see ya!
It still boggles my mind why Israeli maintainers are still in the kernel 🤯.
Next up, maintainers with red pubic hair.
byeeeeeeee
What pisses me off the most about NAFOids is the absolute and constant pettiness.
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The brutal cognitive dissonance you manage to encapsulated in this comment is impressive.
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