Sacrilege

I grew up in a rural Utah town. Here are things I attempted to correct my teachers on while in elementary school with the result of them telling me if I continued to disagree with them I’d be sent to the principals office:

• Evolution does in fact exist and “monkeys aren’t turning into humans today” because that’s not how evolution works.
• There are different methods for multiplying numbers (lattice)
• The amount of protons in an atom is equal to the number of electrons not neutrons. Yes for lighter elements they can be the same but isotopes are a thing (yes this actually happened and the next day we watched a bill nye that said exactly what I was saying. Of course bringing up the fact I was right and she was wrong was not a wise course of action.)
• If the earth was a few feet closer to the sun we would not die. The earth actually is closer and further throughout the year on the scale of a few million miles. (Asserting that this was also not proof of god’s existence was similarly not a wise thing for elementary me to do)
• “Foot zoning” has been debunked and you should tell people to see a real doctor when they feel sick
• Those white homeopathic medicine pills don’t do anything
• If we know how disease spreads and it’s due to human action/choices then it’s not gods punishment because he couldn’t control the spread unless he controls those people.

I’m sure there were more seeing as I frequently had to “pull a card” in nearly every class and most times had no idea why what I said was wrong. There were definitely some on global warming but I don’t remember the specifics.

Anyway, it is almost certain that I would argue some things that were wrong, after all, I was like < 12yo and surrounded by people who would constantly tell me the encyclopedias I read were wrong (I didn’t like chapter books and encyclopedias had pictures) but even then, there still definitely were things I was and still am right about.

And it probably would have been better for my mental health growing up if I hadn’t thought “wow if all these adults believe this thing then it must be true and I must just be an idiot” No past me, you were right, they were wrong. Essential oils are bullshit and definitely don’t cure cancer, animals do feel pain and deserve to be treated with respect, and yes the cult you were raised in makes no sense whatsoever. Basically the entirety of your hometown, and most of your family members are just delusional. You’re not wrong and they don’t just not believe you because you’re a kid, they just don’t believe in evidence, and there’s no evidence one can use to convince people who don’t believe in evidence.

Edit: to clarify, this was a legitimate public elementary school not some weird religious institution. Its just the typical education found in small Mormon towns in Utah.

deleted by creator

Well actually it’s the other way around. The reason imaginary numbers were invented was to solve a problem we’d been crying over for centuries.

Then, as in most cases, solving one problem opens the door to millions of other problems like why in the fuck does the universe use these imaginary numbers we made up to solve cube roots?

Why is i a core part of the unit circle with like e^i*pi ? “Oh that’s because i is just perpendicular to the real number line” ?! Say that sentence again, how the fuck did we go from throwing sharp sticks to utterly deranged sentences like that? More importantly why do utterly deranged sentences like that accurately describe our universe and what is the next ludicrous math concept we’re going to discover is integral to the function of the universe?

Well, we’re adding “learn to create Linux distribution” to my ever growing list of ambitious projects I’ll never finish lol

“The Yellow Wallpaper”

It was quite scarring for most of the kids in my 7th grade class.

Also I’ve only just now realized that wallpaper back then could have contained arsenic so going insane from being in contact with it constantly enough to stain your skin is a very real possibility.

Trick them into thinking they could destroy you and your ideals in an argument if they were only slightly more informed. Worked on me lol

Jk, I mean that would’ve probably worked on me, but really I started because I was genuinely curious and someone here said State and Revolution had the answers

Well suggestion for recruiting techniques, all it took for me was starting to read State and revolution. Two days of that and boom suddenly I’m telling my liberal friends they are in fact not socialists at all.

Also I’m not even through the whole thing yet because I keep getting distracted, but I’ve already told several of my friends to read it because I think they, like me, will be slightly stunned when they see things from Lenin’s perspective.

Sidenote: while on the train as I’m reading, I feel the urge to talk to people about it. Unfortunately, I live in like one of the most conservative places ever, so I honestly might get shot if I start a converstation about socialism. That being said, if someone here dares me to do it I will lol

Some people even call that “networking”

Yes! Fucking preach! I loathe how many times I’ve been told by even my university that I need to “network” in order to be successful and what they say is “make friends with these people so they can help you get a job” But what I hear is “use friendship to manipulate this person for your own career goals.”

Sure I should talk to my professors and get involved in research, but not because I want the possible job advantage of knowing people in the industry. I should get involved because it’s cool fucking research!

“Scary door” from Futurama

It’s a play on the twilight zone and it’s quite something.

“A casino where I’m always winning? This must be heaven!” “A casino where I always win… I must actually be… IN HELL!”

“No Mr. smith. You’re not in heaven or hell. You’re on an airplane!”

“Help! There’s a gremlin destroying the plane! You’ve gotta believe me!”

“Why should I believe you?! You’re Hitler!”

For those interested: The Scary Door

Yeah I now understand why real socialists hate what most people think is the left. Everything I’ve ever heard called socialism or socialist by anyone I know, left or right leaning, is focused entirely on economics. It’s always like begging the state to make the lives of the working class less horrible, whereas socialism—defined by Marx and Lenin—isn’t really much about economics at all, focusing on class and the “issue of the state.”

I only got about a third of the way through before I decided to reread from the beginning taking notes on every sentence, so I’ve still got a ways to go (especially since I have difficulty reading due to ADHD). But I really am surprised by how invested I am in this and how many new things I’m noticing in the world around me.

I realized this morning that even terms like “socialized medicine” seem to be exactly what Lenin is describing about how the ideals of revolutionaries are manipulated to entirely exclude their core values, to become palatable and innocuous. Nationalizing the cost of healthcare has nothing to do with the “issue of the state.” It doesn’t have anything to do with revolution or the dissolution of class. It’s just begging the state to make the situation of the working class less horrible.

And that’s the point. When most people think socialism they think about stuff like that (or at least I did and most of the people I know). They think about trying to tax the rich more or trying to get the state to fund more public services. They are placated by the illusion that actions like those will slowly but surely fix the issues that arise from class…

Anyway, I have yet to disagree with Lenin. And while I’m still hesitant to openly call myself a socialist before I learn more, I definitely will be defending that term. Like honestly I’m so ready for one of my liberal friends calls themselves a socialist so I can explain that nothing they do is really socialism lol

Yeah, I should have realized that the term fascism would obviously have different definitions depending on the ideology of those using it. I also should have realized that in using an umbrella term like fascism or nationalism, I was obscuring the underlying reasons for my opinion.

And not just obscuring them from you all but from myself too. Had I put thought into the specifics of what I was writing, I probably wouldn’t have posted here at all because I would have realized how uncertain my own opinion was and how little I knew.

But, it’s not all bad. First, it’s good for me to make a fool of myself every once in a while because I definitely need to be humbled sometimes. Secondly, it is only because of the comments here that I started reading the stuff I’ve been telling myself I need to read for like years.

I started “The State and Revolution” today and I am enjoying it significantly more that I thought I would. Definitely is making me see things from a new perspective and also to just see things I never noticed before. Anyway it’s very entertaining because I like learning, and Lenin keeps answering the questions that I have about what he’s saying like as soon as I have them which is kind of neat

Alright, firstly, my original question was strictly about the opinions of people in this community and their reasoning behind them. This was the proper place to ask that question.

Second, instead of receiving answers to my question, I was made aware of my ignorance and my further comments were primarily asking questions to further my understanding of those responses and asking questions about where I could go to learn more myself.

You are correct that it isn’t reasonable for me to expect all of you to hold my hand and teach me everything. That is why I did try to ask questions more focused on where I could find the answers myself.

they were created with science and observation

So were the ones in any dictionary ever. Now if you mean that the Marxist-Leninist definitions are more rigorously defined then you can assert that, but you can’t assert that other definitions are invalid or not based on “reality” only that they are less rigorously defined and do not share much overlap with your set of definitions.

You can even argue that more rigorous definitions are more useful for in depth discussion, and you’d be right, but that still doesn’t mean the other definitions are any less “real.”

As for the rest of your comment, it seems like you don’t understand what I mean by right now.

Imagine you were asking someone where you should go eat and they brought up a time they accidentally ate rotten food from their fridge. Does that help you decide where to eat? No. Does that mean that the story didn’t happen? No. Does it mean that the story isn’t important? No. But it isn’t important in the context of your decision on where to eat.

Imagine you were asked your friend what shade of red a flower was and instead of answering they decided to talk about what shade of blue a nearby one was. Is the shade of blue of that flower any less important and the shade of red of the one you’re looking at? No, but hearing about the shade of that flower doesn’t help you with your question. So it isn’t important right now.

That is what I’m trying to say with the moon example. Sure we’d all die, but that wouldn’t answer my question and while relevant to you and I, would not be relevant to the intended topic of discussion.

Do you get what I’m trying to say?

Your inability to talk about the state of the US empire and it’s effect on the world is really not our problem

Firstly *its. Second, yep you’re right because that is a problem that doesn’t exist.

It is presumptuous for you to assume I’m incapable of talking about the US or the atrocities committed by it. As it is presumptuous that you think I in any way support those actions or have no empathy for those affected by them.

I’m sorry you’re upset. Clearly I’ve struck a nerve and I do apologize for that.

I do not think you are a “bad guy” for telling me to do reading. You are correct on that front and I believe I said as much.

My criticism of your responses was strictly about how emotional and unhelpful some of it was.

This response is similar.

You seem so focused on belittling me or hating me for opinions you believe I have, that you don’t seem to be attempting to understand what I’m trying to say.

I’m sorry that you think I have no sympathy for others. I’m sorry saying anything that initially offended you.

I’m sorry that you automatically assume people do not care about what has happened and what is still happening to people around the world due to the imperialism and disregard of countries like the United States. Your compassion for others is admirable, and your distress over the perceived disregard for their suffering is also valid. But your hatred towards me is misguided.

I am not your enemy. I am not blind to the problems of the world and I am not silent about my distaste for the US’s role in those problems. However, considering I made that point in my last reply, it seems you are so set in your belief that I am your enemy that you will no longer listen to reason. I doubt there is any evidence I could give you, or words I could write that would change your mind, so instead I’ll end this with an apology.

I can imagine where you’re coming from. I can imagine where your feelings of anger and hatred and paranoia arise from. I can imagine the feelings of distrust you feel towards me and the feelings of wrath you have for anyone who you believe would defend the atrocities you’ve learned about.

It must suck feeling all of those feelings. It probably sucks worse feeling like you can’t share them openly because there is prejudice towards “tankies.” Finding a safe space on the internet for you to share those thoughts only to then have to deal with someone from the outside questioning those thoughts may feel like a violation.

I really am sorry that I have added to your negative feelings today. I hope you forget about this conversation quickly and can focus your mind on more positive thoughts, or at the very least, one less negative one.

None of us are deliberately being antagonistic or trolls.

I did not mean to imply you were being trolls. If that was unclear I am sorry. I also did not mean to imply that you were being deliberately antagonistic. I was trying to make you aware of the fact you were coming across to me that way. And that dealing with trolls would explain why you may naturally have responded in that way

The others who have already tried to help you were far nicer than I’m willing to be

You are correct, the others in this chain have been much less condescending. That’s why my reply about it was directed toward you.

…are based in reality with clear definitions.

Wikipedia fits both those requirements?

You are right that I should probably have researched the terms definitions that you would use, but I honestly did not know there were significant discrepancies in the definitions of these terms until this discussion.

As for your second point, I do not want to “totally disentangle the USA” from this discussion. I simply wanted to point out that your argument was fallacious. The wrongs of one entity do not justify the wrongs of another.

The reason I said my argument didn’t involve the US at all was that I’m not interested in comparison between North Korea and another country.

Analyzing one variable is also how science is done. I want to analyze specifically DRPK because that is what my question was about. If I ask why a flower is red and you start describing how it’s not as complicated as why a flower is blue, can you see why that isn’t helpful?

Bringing up how the US shaped the current state of NK is certainly relevant. Bringing up a genocide being funded by the US on the other side of the world with no connection to the DPRK is not.

Furthermore I am not here to “rank nations” though I will admit I definitely do need to reconsider the way I currently rank them and why. I was wondering what the justification was for supporting a nation with traits I viewed as negative and that fit my definition of fascism. If you do it because “the US is worse” then I guess I have my answer.

Why aren’t you interested in what you call “American corruption”

I guess I should have specified that I meant I’m not interested in that right now, as in that isn’t the topic I’m asking about right now.

splash in the kiddie pool

This is what I meant by condescending and antagonistic.

You THINK having clear definitions of this is somehow salami slicing but it is incredibly important.

Firstly I have never heard that expression before. Secondly, what? The whole thing I’ve been bringing up with definitions is incredibly important.

When I say “words have the meaning you give to them” I’m not saying that it doesn’t matter what definition you have, I’m saying the exact opposite. It is important that we have the same definitions of words if we are going to use those words to try and communicate with one another. I’m not sure how you misinterpreted that but I’m sorry if I didn’t make it clear enough.

every description you give of it applies to the US

Again who gives a shit about that right now? I don’t care if the US were to blow up the moon, that has no bearing on whether or not the DRPK is militarized or why it is or isn’t a justified trait.

rank nations based on

Bruh why are you obsessed with ranking nations? Did my comment really come off that way?

Also technically speaking, if we were to set common definitions of what militarization means and its degrees then we absolutely could rank nations like that and it would not be subjective like attractiveness. However that would require common definitions which we don’t have and it would also require us to desire to rank nations by militarism which in currently not interested in tho the US almost certainly does win that one lol

Anyway, sorry if my questions or response are pissing you off. You are right that I have a long way to go, but hey Plato said to never discourage anyone who makes progress no matter how slow right?

Ha well you’ve never met me!

(Fact check: This still might not help conversation because I’m definitely just bad at conversation anyway lol, also hearing myself called a liberal just reminds me of conversations back in my hometown or with my grandparents lol)

Edit/Update: I suppose it hasn’t helped with conversation but I’d like to say I am using the wiki to define terms as I read them in State and Revolution, so that I understand the text as it was most likely intended, hopefully avoiding the misunderstanding that plagued me in this comment section lol

That’s mercantilism right? Except with democratic representatives setting prices rather than a monarchy. Doesn’t that get arbitrarily complex as new kinds of things are made? Why do you think it is better than “outsourcing” that work to a market?

You do make a good point. I do think it is reasonable to have a strong military or the desire for one if your country has been repeatedly attacked. Being proud of one’s country is also not necessarily a bad thing.

The military issue I have is that the prioritization of military is not strictly due to a reflexive urge but that military strength is a core concept of Juche. Military is not just prioritized out of need but is a core principle. There is no non-militarized Juche.

The issue with things I’d call “nationalism” is primarily when patriotism leads to antagonizing other countries or reducing the desire for international cooperation. The desire for self sufficiency that Juche dictates seemed to border on this. “Seemed” because this thread has made me aware of my ignorance and until I read more, I shouldn’t set or hold to any strong opinions

There is definitely some truth to this statement. While trying to think of examples I realized I definitely was just thinking of examples I’ve seen. I will say though, the US definitely does still count as hypermilitarized in my mind and in the minds of most if not all the (non-conservative) people I know, so I think you might be exaggerating the double standard a bit

Damn the theme for this comment chain really is that you all use esoteric definitions of terms haha

I’ll try to read State and Revolution (that’s the one by Lenin right? I think I already had it on my list)

As for hypermilitarism, I think ingraining military prowess into the national ideology would count. Tying national identity to military dominance does not seem healthy for a society. Furthermore, bragging about one’s military prowess also seems unhealthy for a society and pointedly against international peace / cooperation.

The definitions of militarism I think of when I hear the word are typically “Glorification of military,” “Predominance of the armed forces in the administration or policy of the state.” And “The view that military strength, efficiency and values should dominate the country’s public policy choices and take precedence over other interests.”

Personally the definition: “The policy of maintaining a large military force, even in peacetime” falls more on the “hypermilitarism” side of things in my mind. However, I do understand that desire in countries that have been colonized and repeatedly attacked.

Anyway the DPRK seems to fit all those definitions and from what I’ve read (don’t worry I’m reading more) those definitions are ingrained in the ideology of Juche.

Also my questions don’t involve the US at all. The US is a clear example of militarism and definitely takes the cake as the most hypermilitarized country. That being said, the US hypermilitarism arises from the prevalent corruption in it, whereas the militarism of DPRK is a foundational element of Juche. <- this is not to say the US is better in any way, only to illustrate that what I dislike is not specifically that the DPRK is hyper militarized but that its founding principles require it to be and that seems flawed.

Regardless, trying to say something is good because another thing is worse is a fallacy. I’m not interested in American corruption I’m interested in opinions on elements I view as flaws in the ideology of the DPRK.

I also realize that you are probably used to dealing with trolls being antagonistic on purpose, but I really am just trying to learn.

Where would you suggest I go to learn about those terms and their differences?