I think, to an extent, Western-style liberal democracy is never going to work in China. In any big country, it has a nearly universal tendency to turn into oligarchy.
Western-style liberal democracy
so, not a democracy?
Liberal democracy is oligarchic period. Liberal legal frameworks exist to allow the rich to control the playing field.
If you look back at the first comment I made on this thread, you’ll see that this is exactly what I said. Liberal democracy has a historic tendency to turn into oligarchy.
You said “in any big country.”
Direct democracy works fabulously in small communes.
Direct democracy and liberal democracy are extremely different things
That is true, but you might notice that there is some space between these two categories. Germany is a pretty small country, and it’s also an oligarchy.
china is much more of a democracy than the United States has ever been
Death to America
I think you missed her point, she’s saying that westerners have a narrow view of what even counts as “democracy”.
“Political activist” lol
Also a poet, librarian-archivist, a teacher, and a journalist.
I mean, certainly one could pick out a few test cases to indicate a democracy. Do the citizens have the apparent right to…
- criticize the government freely
- due process and unpartial justice
- fair treatment of minority groups
- run for office when qualified
- free press
The US has a lot of headwinds on this short list but at least I am aware of the atrocities it has committed, can ask questions without being disappeared, and can theoretically run for office without being shot. Our democracy is ugly as hell, but at least I can see it. I question all governments that claim some higher ground.
Yes, in China, you can do these things.
Once
why do you think you know what youre talking about? what have you read or watched that makes you so certain of your opinions on China? can you read Chinese? have you ever spoken to someone from China?
Death to America
They watched and read the Western MSM, China Uncensored and laowhy86 and concluded that China is very very bad and evil.
Endless anti-communist, racist anti-Chinese propaganda infests the mind with brainworms.
I’m surprised they haven’t called us all wumao 50 cent army bots yet. I always get that one.
China has a democracy; America doesn’t
criticize the government freely
How many peaceful protesters got bagged in unmarked vans in 2020?
Also the Chicago PD have black sites where they would disappear people without cause and their families would not be notified.
due process and unpartial justice
Yeah it would really suck to be locked up for years without a trial.
fair treatment of minority groups
Yeah that’s definitely not a thing in the US I’m not even sure how you could possibly think that it is unless you got kicked in the head by a donkey.
run for office
Okay…
when qualified
Who determines this qualification?
free press
It’s really easy for the press to be free when the same multinational corporations that the US works on behalf of also own the “free” press.
It’s really interesting that you didn’t mention the one thing that I think a democracy actually has to have: representation/reflection of the will of the citizenry.
How many peaceful protesters got bagged in unmarked vans in 2020? Also the Chicago PD have black sites where they would disappear people without cause and their families would not be notified
“Heh, don’t you know, hexchanner, that not all cops are bad and a few bad apples don’t condemn our great system of burgerland freedom?”
due process and unpartial justice
fair treatment of minority groups
The US
I question all governments that claim some higher ground.
Wow, such insight. I’m glad we have such an enlightened person in our midst to tell us that what if, like, all governments are bad, man?
(and by that I mean China bad)
China is a democracy though.
I am a Chinese person.
The traditional Western definition of a democracy is “a form of government where power is vested in the people and expressed through elections”. By this definition, China is highly undemocratic because there aren’t genuine competitive elections on any level.
The word “democracy” (民主) as used in Mainland China means “a system of government where leaders respond to the needs and demands of the people”. This is slightly different in that a government doesn’t need to be elected to be democratic, it just needs to be responsive to popular demand. China’s government, especially at local levels, is very responsive to local demands, even more so than in the USA (have experienced both personally). So by this slightly different definition, China is democratic.
In Western political philosophy, China’s definition is actually “benevolent government”, not “democracy”. You can argue that being democratic would actually just be meaningless under the Western definitions if the government isn’t benevolent, and I would agree wholeheartedly. But unfortunately English sticks to the Western definitions which is why the statement “China is democratic” will raise eyebrows when said to a crowd of English speakers.
Democracy, the way you and western chauvinists describe it, is nonsense. “Power is vested in the people” is absolutely meaningless apart from a government doing what is desired. In all western countries, these 2 requirements come in complete contradiction. Elections only allow you to choose someone who will not do what you really want and need materially anyways (because their interests are only to convince you once in 4 years to vote for them, but each party is only really competing against the party next to them, and so both move simultaneously in the direction of helping those in power and the ratchet stays). China’s definition is much more truthful. Democracy can only be measured by how it achieves what it’s populace desires. China is leagues ahead of the west in this way
In America you can change the party but not the policies. In China, you can change the policies but not the party.
Chinese mom: “We have democracy at home”
It’s not the 1960s anymore. Chinese democracy is more representative, responsive, and more power is locally devolved to communities than in the USA or any large western democracy.
I wouldn’t even call the USA a democracy anymore due to how gamed it is. I definitely would call China a democracy.
I am a Chinese person.
The traditional Western definition of a democracy is “a form of government where power is vested in the people and expressed through elections”. By this definition, China is highly undemocratic because there aren’t genuine competitive elections on any level.
The word “democracy” (民主) as used in Mainland China means “a system of government where leaders respond to the needs and demands of the people”. This is slightly different in that a government doesn’t need to be elected to be democratic, it just needs to be responsive to popular demand. China’s government, especially at local levels, is very responsive to local demands, even more so than in the USA (have experienced both personally). So by this slightly different definition, China is democratic.
In Western political philosophy, China’s definition is actually “benevolent government”, not “democracy”. You can argue that being democratic would actually just be meaningless under the Western definitions if the government isn’t benevolent, and I would agree wholeheartedly. But unfortunately English sticks to the Western definitions which is why the statement “China is democratic” will raise eyebrows when said to a crowd of English speakers.
No that’s some kind of internalized orientalism. When you say you’re Chinese do you perhaps mean an ethnically Chinese person from Taiwan?
When I say China is Democratic I am referring to
- their elections are not corrupt and reflect the votes of the communities
- their elected officials have a high rate of turnover when compared to the west demonstrating the people are choosing and importantly changing their minds about who they want in power. Compare to the US where 90% of elections are not competitive and so it’s the political patronage network of the Dems or GOP that decide 90% of elections, before we even discuss how meaningful a choice the 2-party system offers
- fully a third of elected officials are independents, and the faction system within the CPC plays the same function as party politics within the west
- the faction system within the CPC is actually more diverse than the party system in the west with factions ranging from die hard Maoists to neoliberals, so to say it’s a one-party state is superficial since factions play the same function within the CPC and to say the 2-party system of almost all of the west presents political diversity is laughable since in the west the political spectrum is one neoliberal party that is homophobic and another neoliberal party that isn’t homophobic; this accurately paints the picture of political diversity in the west which is fucking nothing compared to the diversity of political voices in China
- their elected officials are mostly not lifelong politicians such as in the west meaning in the west we really have a permanent oligarchy (such as Biden who has been part of the ruling oligarchy long enough that he voted against desegregation) whereas in China they elect people who are from the people
- that is to say, Chinese democracy is mostly of the people with some who then climb higher whereas western democracy is a set of lifelong permanent appointments and a remarkably high proportion of them are the children of lifelong politicians
- Chinese democracy is mostly devolved and local, eg city and provincial politics are what matters most, whereas western democracy is mostly centralized
- Chinese people report in poll after poll they see that their government is responsive to their will whereas westerners report the opposite
- Chinese people report a very high level of confidence in the integrity of their democratic processes and representatives when westerners report the opposite
When I say China is a democracy I mean it in the full sense of it, not some orientalized “China is very very mysterious and sinister” sense of it.
It’s not a perfect democracy at all and I won’t make that claim but it’s a very good one and it far outstrips the west in terms of being actually representative of the people in terms of voting patterns resulting in changes of public policy and in terms of diversity of political voices and in terms of actual integrity.
Not some orientalized “benevolent dictator” bullshit but that the people ELECT their leaders for the local politics that matter most and then those local politics elect the national body leading to a system of politics that represents the will of the people based on their right to vote.
Democracy.
I am a citizen of the People’s Republic of China. I have lived in mainland China, Hong Kong, and the United States.
Elections in China are, for the lack of a better word, completely fake. I’ve seen it myself. Very few people in China genuinely believe that voting is a way to get what they want. Candidates are vetted by the local Communist Party chapter and must generally agree with the party doctrine (or at least not oppose it) and be either a Communist Party member, affiliated with it (standing as an independent), or a member of one of the nine smaller parties. China is a one-party state. Dissent is limited to disagreeing on where the bus shelter should be built, not the fundamental direction of the country.
If you openly proclaim you oppose the direction of the country and the Government, fat chance you’ll be allowed to even stand for election, let alone be elected.
I’m not saying that China’s political system is bad, although it certainly has its flaws (not related to elections). China’s system, by and large, works for its people. And Chinese people are perfectly happy with what they have and wouldn’t ever trade it for an election-based system. But it isn’t Western liberal democracy as Americans or Europeans would define it.
Do not use “Orientalism” as a moo word. You might not like what I’m saying, and that’s fine. I am describing what my experiences are as a Chinese person.
Your anecdote is noted but what your anecdote claims is flatly contradicted by data.
I agree it is not a liberal democracy but I don’t think we mean the same thing by that.
Western liberal democracy is to serve the interests of capital and evidently that’s what it does.
Socialist democracy is to serve the interests of the people and according to poll after poll of Chinese people that’s what it is doing.
In terms of the machinery of democracy the data also is in high accordance with the claim that it features a high degree of integrity, data points I outlined above.
It’s true the CPC controls it’s membership but
(1) fully a third of elected officials are independent and many from the other parties for special interests
and (2) within the CPC faction system we see voices in the CPC ranging from Maoists to neoliberals so it’s not performing this function of limiting political voice as you claim but are you saying the 2-party system of the west doesn’t feature the same ideological limits? And in fact we see a much narrower political discourse in the west so clearly the limits imposed by the western liberal democracy 2-party system is actually performing that filter function aggressively than the CPC does,
and (3) a very large fraction of the population are members whereas in the west such a tiny fraction of the population are direct participants in democracy so even on the topic of membership of the CPC the Chinese model features far more inclusion than you see in the west.
The role of decentralizing power to the local and provincial levels is also very important in this discussion since it’s such a large and populous country. Like I’d agree at the national level the Will of the people is somewhat indirect since there is a hierarchical system where you vote at level A and level A elects level B so at the top of this pyramid Democratic voice is indirect but the politics that matters are mostly at level A and the consensus model of politics means that the indirect influence upon the top of the hierarchy is still much more meaningful than the pretense of the 2-party system where Teo neoliberal parties fight culture wars in lieu of politics.
It’s not a perfect democracy but it’s actually a very good one.
I think (2) is an important point by the way, when you wring your hands about the potential for CPC membership to limit political diversity you need to square that with the reality that you see much more political diversity within their system than the western liberal model even just within the CPC and ignoring the important role of elected independents.
