Mao should not be listed under “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics”, this was a post-Mao invention and Mao’s work contributes directly to Marxism-Leninism
Gaddafi should be removed entirely. He may be valuable as a historical figure but he is not a socialist theorist (iirc the Green Book is explicitly non-Marxist) and including him under “Socialism” is misleading to new and less informed communists
For Mao, I asked our resident China expert and am waiting for a response; we’ll see what he says. Although I think it would make sort of a minute difference to move Mao’s card as his work was mostly about China’s material conditions and SWCC takes what he laid down; would you move Lenin because Marxism-leninism is a post-Lenin invention too? 😄
Socialist doesn’t necessarily mean marxist, and Gaddafi joins the row of people like MLK or Einstein (for whom we have only 1 work so they don’t have their own cards). Gaddafi’s writings are unfamiliar to me personally, but we talked about him quite a bit with the editorship, including people who are familiar with him, and the consensus is that he was a socialist to some extent, but certainly not a communist or a marxist.
As for the documents, our goal is to rehost every major document from communist parties around the world so as to archive them… but between what we want to do and what we have the current capabilities of doing is a lot of ground to cover lol. Sometimes we also rehost documents we intend to use as sources.
It may seem pedantic, but plenty of Mao’s writings have use outside of the Chinese context the same way Lenin’s writings can be used outside the Russian context. SwCC is by definition stuff that should only apply to the conditions in China, which I think narrows the view on the usefulness of Mao to a less informed reader.
If you’re going to be looser with the definition of socialism in that way, may I recommend relabeling the header “non-Marxist Socialism” or something like that?
I can appreciate the goal, but I think it’s a bit of a waste to do so and not have some editorial insight or at least critique of works by parties that are communist in name as this is another way to confuse new communists.
And thank you for taking the time to consider my gripes!
You’re not wrong with the SWCC, it might be to generalist a term. Likewise for the communist/socialist demarcation, I think we agree but in different ways.
It’s possible documents can confuse new readers, but I think that remains to be proven. Sometimes there’s also good analysis in places, and bad analysis in others. One thing we don’t want to do is edit the works we put in the library, which is something that marxists.org does, like editing Stalin to make him look bad. We’re strictly a publisher for now.
I’m not sure it’s documented anywhere, but if you read anything by Trotsky on there it’s full of inline notes to explain what he means, and these notes are full of words like “Stalinists” or “bureaucrats” lol.
That’s fine but publishers aren’t neutral, so if the ProleWiki team hosts something from an otherwise disagreeable source it would be good if the editorial team or submitter justified why a particular piece of analysis is worthwhile. Having that clarity helps guide people in the right direction versus them cobbling together a patchwork idea of communism based on assumptions like the CPC and CPRF are of the same importance because both of their works are featured
I think you should expand into this. Historic figures, historic figures, historic figures. Lists of scientists, activists and so on, with their pictures, with contents of various length (even if it’s just a short quote) demonstrating their support for socialists, communists, etc etc.
The biggest and most successful propaganda tool I have had in any discussion is namedropping Einstein, Nelson Mandela, etc etc and illuminating the history that liberals hide about them.
Some gripes:
Hey, thanks for the feedback.
For Mao, I asked our resident China expert and am waiting for a response; we’ll see what he says. Although I think it would make sort of a minute difference to move Mao’s card as his work was mostly about China’s material conditions and SWCC takes what he laid down; would you move Lenin because Marxism-leninism is a post-Lenin invention too? 😄
Socialist doesn’t necessarily mean marxist, and Gaddafi joins the row of people like MLK or Einstein (for whom we have only 1 work so they don’t have their own cards). Gaddafi’s writings are unfamiliar to me personally, but we talked about him quite a bit with the editorship, including people who are familiar with him, and the consensus is that he was a socialist to some extent, but certainly not a communist or a marxist.
As for the documents, our goal is to rehost every major document from communist parties around the world so as to archive them… but between what we want to do and what we have the current capabilities of doing is a lot of ground to cover lol. Sometimes we also rehost documents we intend to use as sources.
It may seem pedantic, but plenty of Mao’s writings have use outside of the Chinese context the same way Lenin’s writings can be used outside the Russian context. SwCC is by definition stuff that should only apply to the conditions in China, which I think narrows the view on the usefulness of Mao to a less informed reader.
If you’re going to be looser with the definition of socialism in that way, may I recommend relabeling the header “non-Marxist Socialism” or something like that?
I can appreciate the goal, but I think it’s a bit of a waste to do so and not have some editorial insight or at least critique of works by parties that are communist in name as this is another way to confuse new communists.
And thank you for taking the time to consider my gripes!
You’re not wrong with the SWCC, it might be to generalist a term. Likewise for the communist/socialist demarcation, I think we agree but in different ways.
It’s possible documents can confuse new readers, but I think that remains to be proven. Sometimes there’s also good analysis in places, and bad analysis in others. One thing we don’t want to do is edit the works we put in the library, which is something that marxists.org does, like editing Stalin to make him look bad. We’re strictly a publisher for now.
ooh that sounds interesting, is there a link I can read more about this?
I’m not sure it’s documented anywhere, but if you read anything by Trotsky on there it’s full of inline notes to explain what he means, and these notes are full of words like “Stalinists” or “bureaucrats” lol.
Here they admit themselves to editing Lenin to remove “pro-Stalin bias” from editors: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/note.htm
They also removed portions from Mastering Bolshevism about restraint and care, compare yourself:
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1937/03/03.htm
http://www.marx2mao.com/Stalin/MB37.html
That’s fine but publishers aren’t neutral, so if the ProleWiki team hosts something from an otherwise disagreeable source it would be good if the editorial team or submitter justified why a particular piece of analysis is worthwhile. Having that clarity helps guide people in the right direction versus them cobbling together a patchwork idea of communism based on assumptions like the CPC and CPRF are of the same importance because both of their works are featured
I think you should expand into this. Historic figures, historic figures, historic figures. Lists of scientists, activists and so on, with their pictures, with contents of various length (even if it’s just a short quote) demonstrating their support for socialists, communists, etc etc.
The biggest and most successful propaganda tool I have had in any discussion is namedropping Einstein, Nelson Mandela, etc etc and illuminating the history that liberals hide about them.