Serious question, what could possibly convince them?
We all learnt about the atrocious living conditions on factory farms long ago. We all know that the meat industry is terrible for the environment and climate. We learnt about the avian flu being spread on cattle farms, with owners hiding the cases from the authorities, with 0 regard for public safety. We all know that migrants and children are systemically exploited by slaughterhouses, many get PTSD or become alcoholics, some get severely injured or die because of accidents.
Yet after all of that, meat eaters still happily give their money to these places every time they go to a supermarket or restaurant.
The meat industry got people so hooked on animal products that they can get away with basically anything, change my mind.
We’ve already come a long way on price, thankfully. When I go to local supermarkets or discounters (Lidl, Kaufland, Aldi, Penny,…), the store brand meat alternatives are already as cheap as their factory farmed products. Same for the milk alternatives, soy yoghurts, and so on. So price parity has already been reached in many cases, at least here in Germany.
I guess now the issue is that many of the discounter alternatives don’t taste the same as meat yet (although they’re getting better), and the premium plant-based products taste great, but are still more expensive than the cheapest meat products.
That’s a good point actually. If meat and animal products weren’t ridiculously subsidized and the price at the cashier reflected the true cost then there would be an overnight surge in veganism. Nobody would have the political will to completely tank massive well lobbied industries though, regardless of any long term benefit.
I for one don’t really give a shit about murder. Less animal cruelty would be nice, but it’s not a deal breaker for me.
I’m cutting back on meat because I researched the climate effects and it’s ridiculous, especially for beef. I care about the climate far more than I care about the lives or wellbeing of animals bred for slaughter. “Meat is murder” annoys me. “Meat is destroying our climate” resonates with me.
I know there’s a lot of people who don’t give a shit about the climate either, but there’s a lot more people who give a shit about the climate than there are people who give a shit about the wellbeing of animals. So maybe focus on that?
Buddy vegans are always calling out animal subsidies. Like I have been with Canada wasting 2 billion dollars on it. You need to pay more attention about the vegans you claim to know so much about.
Because it is the animals are sentient, they have feelings.
“People in the US consume far more meat than is normal or necessary for human beings to consume. This has resulted in an obesity epidemic, were heart and circulatory system problems are the biggest (second biggest?) cause of death in America and tens millions of people (probably more but I didn’t check) spend decades of their lives suffering from chronic health conditions related to food overconsumption. Eating less meat is not only good for Environment of the planet you live in, it’s also good for you”.
There you go.
Start with an “eating less meat is good for you” message (that can even sway selfish assholes) and then as they get used to doing it slowly convince people to eat less and less meat, which is basically the step by step approach that Meatless Mondays is going for.
Even just a reduction of the demand for meat might reduce the use of the worst, industrial, methods of killing of animal for food and will certainly reduce the number of animals getting raised just to be killed for food - it’s basic Economics.
Demanding that others MUST fully obbey your morals is just going to generate pushback and actually strengthen resistance to even the practical positives of being more like what you want, which ends up resulting in far more killings of animal than an approach that accepts that the way to perfect goes through less than perfect.
There’s some truth to that. However, not all loud and disruptive activities have been successful at achieving their goals. Most are counterproductive.
I would say that militant veganism is about as productive at promoting a plant-based diet as the Westboro Baptist Church was at promoting heterosexuality.
Lmao why I’m responsible for your actions? I don’t financially support animal exploitation and murder. You need to stop eating animals and get with the times. That is a lame excuse and you know it.
If you want to learn more of where vegans are coming from then watch Dominion 2018:
Sounds to me like you were just looking for an excuse to do something you’re not totally convinced is the right thing… Your comment also reads way more aggressive than it would have had to be, which makes me think that vegan got to you more than you’d like. But that’s just me. And I’m in permanent conflict myself for trying to eat vegan myself and raising two kids (as predominately vegetarian omnivores - if that makes any sense.)
Sure if you want to read into psychology of a comment and “who got to who hardest” go ahead. I just saw a combative vegan and ordered burgers which I didn’t plan on eating today. Do with that what you will, attribute some internalised guilt, whatever.
Vegan is not sustainable and far more effort, not possible for most. People try to get by. Unlike with emissions, a poor person essentially eats as much as the richest. But those are also those with the least free time and money to change to a different diet.
Why not vegetarian first? Because dairy is seriously messed up.
Cows have an average lifespan of around twenty years off the top of my head. Cows are mammals, and produce milk to feed their young. To keep them producing milk, you have to keep them perpetually pregnant. This is done via artificial insemination the overwhelming majority of the time, where a farmer puts her in a rape rack, sticks their hand up her ass far enough to grab her cervix and align everything, then jams a syringe full of bull semen into her vagina.
A side effect of pregnancy is children. Her calves are stolen from her after she gives birth, and murdered to be sold for veal. This cycle is repeated continually for four or five years until she becomes physically incapable of functioning from the repeated pregnancies. Then she’s slaughtered for her flesh too.
Dairy is the meat industry, just with additional abuses. Vegetarians are continuing to support the abuse of animals. It makes much more sense to just go vegan from an ethical standpoint.
A whole foods plant based is 30% cheaper and will save thousands of dollars in healthcare related costs.
I’m low income can manage just fine as a vegan. The only extra time needed is to learn the new recipes.
Abstract
“It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease. Vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements.”
So what does it mean for children on vegan and vegetarian diets?
This doesn’t mean every child who follows these diets is going to have these nutritional and health benefits or problems. And we also can’t say whether these problems will persist into adulthood.
But it does highlight potential risks which health practitioners and parents need to be aware of. And it’s a reminder to either find suitable replacements that align with the family’s diet philosophy, or prescribe supplements if a deficiency is diagnosed through a blood test.
In particular, parents and caregivers need to be careful their children are maintaining a good intake of protein from a variety of vegan sources (beans, lentils, nuts) and calcium (from calcium supplemented plant milks).
Whether you’re following a vegan, vegetarian or meat-eating diet, you still need to make sure the diet is balanced across all food groups.
I get it might not be easy, especially if you’re just starting out, but “hardest possible thing to do safely” seems like a stretch.
It is the hardest thing possible in terms of proving the right nutrition to your children using only vegan food. Any other form is easier. Any other age is easier.
“It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that
no, it’s not. this position expired. from your link:
This position is in effect until December 31, 2021.
they had been renewing it every time it expired, with as much of a gap as abut a year. it’s been 3 years. i don’t believe there is any reasot to think they are going to keep this same language if it is ever renewed at all.
Pretty sure it literally is not murder, since that requires killing another human. I do love animals, but I will never agree to put animals and humans on the same level.
I don’t want animals to suffer and die horribly cruel deaths, but other than that I do not care. I do not eat much meat nowadays, but that is because meat is bad for the environment. I care a LOT more about that, then about animals being killed.
supply and demand isn’t a magic phrase that makes your theory true. there is no reason to believe animal husbandry will ever stop before people are extinct.
Each person’s purchases directly lead to consequences. Paying for animal products kills over 200 animals a year per person who does it reguarly. Even if animal abuse will never end it doesn’t mean we should empower or continue supporting it. Especially 3 times a day.
The whole point of the meme is contrasting tiny ineffectual lifestyle changes with actively targeting the people responsible for climate change. Changing the “meatless mondays” panel to “going vegan” ruins the meme by replacing what’s supposed to be small and ineffectual with something that’s actually radical.
Meatless Mondays doesn’t go far enough. It should be everyday. Meat is murder.
I’m sure with that attitude you’ll surely convince a lot of people. /s
Serious question, what could possibly convince them?
We all learnt about the atrocious living conditions on factory farms long ago. We all know that the meat industry is terrible for the environment and climate. We learnt about the avian flu being spread on cattle farms, with owners hiding the cases from the authorities, with 0 regard for public safety. We all know that migrants and children are systemically exploited by slaughterhouses, many get PTSD or become alcoholics, some get severely injured or die because of accidents.
Yet after all of that, meat eaters still happily give their money to these places every time they go to a supermarket or restaurant.
The meat industry got people so hooked on animal products that they can get away with basically anything, change my mind.
Price.
We’ve already come a long way on price, thankfully. When I go to local supermarkets or discounters (Lidl, Kaufland, Aldi, Penny,…), the store brand meat alternatives are already as cheap as their factory farmed products. Same for the milk alternatives, soy yoghurts, and so on. So price parity has already been reached in many cases, at least here in Germany.
I guess now the issue is that many of the discounter alternatives don’t taste the same as meat yet (although they’re getting better), and the premium plant-based products taste great, but are still more expensive than the cheapest meat products.
Vegans should stop trying to guilt others into veganism and start lobbying to end meat subsidies (or reapply them to vegan food).
The reason people hate vegans is because many of them do it for personal moral superiority, not to actually help anything.
That’s a good point actually. If meat and animal products weren’t ridiculously subsidized and the price at the cashier reflected the true cost then there would be an overnight surge in veganism. Nobody would have the political will to completely tank massive well lobbied industries though, regardless of any long term benefit.
I for one don’t really give a shit about murder. Less animal cruelty would be nice, but it’s not a deal breaker for me.
I’m cutting back on meat because I researched the climate effects and it’s ridiculous, especially for beef. I care about the climate far more than I care about the lives or wellbeing of animals bred for slaughter. “Meat is murder” annoys me. “Meat is destroying our climate” resonates with me.
I know there’s a lot of people who don’t give a shit about the climate either, but there’s a lot more people who give a shit about the climate than there are people who give a shit about the wellbeing of animals. So maybe focus on that?
Buddy vegans are always calling out animal subsidies. Like I have been with Canada wasting 2 billion dollars on it. You need to pay more attention about the vegans you claim to know so much about.
Because it is the animals are sentient, they have feelings.
“People in the US consume far more meat than is normal or necessary for human beings to consume. This has resulted in an obesity epidemic, were heart and circulatory system problems are the biggest (second biggest?) cause of death in America and tens millions of people (probably more but I didn’t check) spend decades of their lives suffering from chronic health conditions related to food overconsumption. Eating less meat is not only good for Environment of the planet you live in, it’s also good for you”.
There you go.
Start with an “eating less meat is good for you” message (that can even sway selfish assholes) and then as they get used to doing it slowly convince people to eat less and less meat, which is basically the step by step approach that Meatless Mondays is going for.
Even just a reduction of the demand for meat might reduce the use of the worst, industrial, methods of killing of animal for food and will certainly reduce the number of animals getting raised just to be killed for food - it’s basic Economics.
Demanding that others MUST fully obbey your morals is just going to generate pushback and actually strengthen resistance to even the practical positives of being more like what you want, which ends up resulting in far more killings of animal than an approach that accepts that the way to perfect goes through less than perfect.
May I ask you nicely then? Because I think they have a point…
The most effective forms of activism are those that are the most disruptive
That’s true.
It’s also true that the most counterproductive forms of activism are those that are most disruptive.
Turns out that the degree of disruption does not accurately predict the effectiveness of the activism.
We should have toxic vegan zealot free Mondays on Lemmy.
So when you don’t have any actual arguments against their point of view, you resort to criticising their ‘attitude’. I see
And when you don’t even try to ask my point of view, you resort to assumptions.
I’m not vegan to make friends. I do it for animals rights and the environment.
Being less of an extremist about it would result in fewer animals being eaten, though.
In other words, you are killing animals via your attitude.
Factually untrue lmao. All social rights movements historically only brought about major change by being loud and disruptive
There’s some truth to that. However, not all loud and disruptive activities have been successful at achieving their goals. Most are counterproductive.
I would say that militant veganism is about as productive at promoting a plant-based diet as the Westboro Baptist Church was at promoting heterosexuality.
Lmao why I’m responsible for your actions? I don’t financially support animal exploitation and murder. You need to stop eating animals and get with the times. That is a lame excuse and you know it.
If you want to learn more of where vegans are coming from then watch Dominion 2018:
https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?si=WREcMf6VEXW_oawv
you should give a trigger warning when you link gore
no one does.
You are responsible for my actions because you are so combative I’m going to order a hamburger because of you. And today is salad day.
Sounds to me like you were just looking for an excuse to do something you’re not totally convinced is the right thing… Your comment also reads way more aggressive than it would have had to be, which makes me think that vegan got to you more than you’d like. But that’s just me. And I’m in permanent conflict myself for trying to eat vegan myself and raising two kids (as predominately vegetarian omnivores - if that makes any sense.)
Sure if you want to read into psychology of a comment and “who got to who hardest” go ahead. I just saw a combative vegan and ordered burgers which I didn’t plan on eating today. Do with that what you will, attribute some internalised guilt, whatever.
Lmao meatflake.
i get the feeling you think you won an argument on the internet
Someone died for those sad looking things?
Sounds like you’re vegan to make enemies tbh
According to that logic vegans are seen as enemies to everyone who is ignorant, cruel and lazy.
The more education someone has the more likely they’re to be vegan.
Removed by mod
this comment was removed without explanation.
edit:
i have received a reason: supposedly it’s misinformation to claim that (something) doesn’t help the environment, but i have a proof:
my logic is sound, it is not misinformation. in fact, labeling it misinformation is, itself, misinformation.
Why not vegetarian first? Improving step by step?
Vegan is not sustainable and far more effort, not possible for most. People try to get by. Unlike with emissions, a poor person essentially eats as much as the richest. But those are also those with the least free time and money to change to a different diet.
Why not vegetarian first? Because dairy is seriously messed up.
Cows have an average lifespan of around twenty years off the top of my head. Cows are mammals, and produce milk to feed their young. To keep them producing milk, you have to keep them perpetually pregnant. This is done via artificial insemination the overwhelming majority of the time, where a farmer puts her in a rape rack, sticks their hand up her ass far enough to grab her cervix and align everything, then jams a syringe full of bull semen into her vagina.
A side effect of pregnancy is children. Her calves are stolen from her after she gives birth, and murdered to be sold for veal. This cycle is repeated continually for four or five years until she becomes physically incapable of functioning from the repeated pregnancies. Then she’s slaughtered for her flesh too.
Dairy is the meat industry, just with additional abuses. Vegetarians are continuing to support the abuse of animals. It makes much more sense to just go vegan from an ethical standpoint.
almost no calves end up as veal at all. the vast majority of cattle are brought to full weight before slaughter.
this just isn’t true. they aren’t perpetually pregnant.
no, they don’t. they have an average life span of about 18 months as beef cattle and maybe 6 years as dairy cattle.
A whole foods plant based is 30% cheaper and will save thousands of dollars in healthcare related costs.
I’m low income can manage just fine as a vegan. The only extra time needed is to learn the new recipes.
Abstract
“It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease. Vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements.”
https://www.jandonline.org/article/S2212-2672(16)31192-3/abstract
Yeah, no, raising children vegan is the hardest possible thing to do safely/healthy. example from a study in Poland
And this comes on top of the fact that vegan people are richer and spend much more time thinking/planing food than average people.
I get it might not be easy, especially if you’re just starting out, but “hardest possible thing to do safely” seems like a stretch.
It is the hardest thing possible in terms of proving the right nutrition to your children using only vegan food. Any other form is easier. Any other age is easier.
no, it’s not. this position expired. from your link:
they had been renewing it every time it expired, with as much of a gap as abut a year. it’s been 3 years. i don’t believe there is any reasot to think they are going to keep this same language if it is ever renewed at all.
not for everyone.
“Whole Foods” is not what you want there.
Pretty sure it literally is not murder, since that requires killing another human. I do love animals, but I will never agree to put animals and humans on the same level. I don’t want animals to suffer and die horribly cruel deaths, but other than that I do not care. I do not eat much meat nowadays, but that is because meat is bad for the environment. I care a LOT more about that, then about animals being killed.
Definitions are perscriptive, not descriptive.
Animals are moral agents, it is murder. It is unnecesary and cruel to forcefully breed and take lives for the sake of taste.
They have desires, ability to suffer, ability to love, build social bonds and connections. They don’t deserve to die.
True but still not murder. You can use words to mean just what you choose them to mean if you please but murder requires a human victim
If some killed your dog it’s not murder then?
obviously not
everything alive dies. why should livestock be an exception?
We’re forcefully enslaving, breeding, and killing billions annually. Theres a difference from killing and dying naturally.
humans are natural. what people do is natural.
Naturalistic fallacy. Just because something is “natural” doesn’t make it good
i didn’t say it’s good. if anyone is claiming that natural things are good, it is you, by claiming something you want to paint as bad is unnatural.
I never made a naturalistic claim. Its illogical
no, they aren’t
most livestock is bred and killed for profit.
Profit from from consumers which buy because taste and habits.
Farmers are paid long before their products are on the shelves
They’re paid because there is demand for their bloodshed and torture. Supply and demand. If consumers stopped demanding it the supply would diminish
this isn’t causal.
?
supply and demand isn’t a magic phrase that makes your theory true. there is no reason to believe animal husbandry will ever stop before people are extinct.
Each person’s purchases directly lead to consequences. Paying for animal products kills over 200 animals a year per person who does it reguarly. Even if animal abuse will never end it doesn’t mean we should empower or continue supporting it. Especially 3 times a day.
The whole point of the meme is contrasting tiny ineffectual lifestyle changes with actively targeting the people responsible for climate change. Changing the “meatless mondays” panel to “going vegan” ruins the meme by replacing what’s supposed to be small and ineffectual with something that’s actually radical.