In my own experience with actual Communists (I do live in a country which has them), they’re some of the most conservative people around.
I mean, these people are holding on really hard to political slogans which often are a century old or near it and they genuinelly an uncritically think all that stuff is Leftwing even in the face of all evidence that such forms invariably led to the creating of new Elites and to lesser or greater extent Dystopian Societies, never the promised Equalitarian Utopia.
Plenty of Lefties around who trully believe in Leftwing Principles without the insane tribalism of following the dictats of The Party.
Personally I just saw this meme as referencing such traditionalist unthinking muppets who think of themselves as Lefties all the while defending the well installed and entrenched establishment and elites of a few specific countries.
Russia was and is a culturally conservative country. The USSR made some early progress towards equality for women and LGBT folk, and turned it right back around a bit later. Russification under the Czar–trying to get all the diverse ethnic minorities to just be Russian–was simply turned into a Stalinist version of the same thing. The fundamental authoritarianism of the Czar never left, but it was given a Marxist coat of paint.
The USSR made some early progress towards equality for women and LGBT folk, and turned it right back around a bit later.
I’m sorry but this is just wrong. The Soviet Union was the first European country to legalize abortion - and after banning it again, they became the second European country to legalize abortion when they re-legalized it, and their commitment to women’s health surpassed any other country for decades as the Soviets provided abortion on demand rather than after a laundry list of restrictions as most of their contemporaries did. The Soviets also had universal childcare, freeing women from the tyranny of domestic servitude decades before any other developed country would, and the legacy of this effort is so strong that even the capitalist successor regimes in Eastern Europe outperform the ones in the West in terms of having female scientists, heads of government departments, etc. The women of the Soviet Union were the freest women in the world for the entirety of the USSR’s existence.
True the Soviets never came around on LGBT issues, which is a shame.
True the Soviets never came around on LGBT issues, which is a shame.
Not even completely true. After the civil war and prior to the crackdowns of the 30s, gay marriage was legalized, and there were soviet scientists already proclaiming that gender was more akin to a spectrum than to a binary. Sadly, that progress was lost forever after Stalinism.
Unfucking it and refucking it and unfucking it again is not exactly success. No more so than recent changes to abortion in the US. And there’s a whole lot more to Feminism than abortion.
Unfucking it and refucking it and unfucking it again is not exactly success
…are you sure? Because if you end up with it unfucked, while in the rest of the world it is still fucked, then I would call that a success even if there was a rocky road to get there.
And the rest of my comment is about how it wasn’t just abortion. You should read it.
Yes, I’m quite sure in the context of my original argument that Russia was and is culturally conservative. A society that goes backwards like that never had a solid feminist culture to begin with.
All across the west we’ve seen rollback of feminist issues over the past decade, do you think that that nullifies all of the victories that have been won? Liberation struggle isn’t like a tech tree that you climb in one direction, it’s a constant back-and-forth battle being waged between the oppressed and the oppressors.
Having lived 20 years abroad, including my core years of personal adult development, and having returned to my homeland were I became a member of a small Leftwing party, I keenly notice just how much people are, seemingly unaware of it, frequently shaping their thinking and even practice of being Leftwing on local cultural factors: pushing up in the party the sons and daughters of old hands or selecting people for positions of responsibility based on liking them rather than merit isn’t really being Leftwing (it’s quite literally the opposite of Fair and by being unmeritocratic one actually reduces the chances of success of the party) and people making speeches of the “give shit to my group” (women, teaches, pensioners, whatever) variety isn’t being Leftwing, it’s disguising one’s greed as being “for the group” and has little to do with the common good.
The point being that all political ideologies get adjusted by those who practice tehm and they do it based on what they thing is normal, and most people think “normal” is what they’ve seen around themselves their whole lives, so it’s expect that the political ideologies that end up being successful in a country “go along with the grain of the wood” and adopt the local’s ideas of “normal”.
No, you do not see comrade. All of the people of mother Russia are Eurasians, which is it’s own unique people that have a culture that just so happens to be identical to Russian culture. You westerners just wouldn’t understand our eastern ways…
Well a lot of that can be explained by the fact that conservatives co-opted the left wing movements for communism and largely turned them into dictatorships. These governments endured several decades before collapsing, which allows newer conservatives to think of them as “the good ol days.”
It doesn’t mean they ever were communists. They just stole the name and ruined its reputation.
A simpler explanation is that the people who seek power are the worst of the bunch and they’ll say whatever it takes to get there and keep it - it’s a pretty well know thing since Ancient times that the best rulers are the ones who do NOT want to rule.
Sociopaths will just as easilly sing praises to Marxism-Leninism as they will to the Free Market, so don’t confuse whatever bullshit they spout to get to and stay at the top of the pile in an the power structures created by a specific ideology with their actual beliefs and don’t excuse the failures of the structures created by that ideology that allow such people to get to the top.
Even if the “Revolution” isn’t led by assholes, any power structure which centralizes power and doesn’t have hard to subvert mechanisms for constant change of who is in power, attract the worst vermin and they’re the one who will knifes as many backs as it takes to get it and keep it so they’re far more likely to get it than “good people”. This is true even in Power Duopoly systems like the US, and much worse in power monopolies like the Soviet Union and even Modern Russia.
That blaming of “others” for one’s own failures is just you having internalised the typical propaganda from the power hungry assholes (just as much from the ones portraying themselves as Fascists or from the ones portraying themselves as Communists) to deflect the blame for their own actions away from themselves.
Back to the specifics of your point, the inherent weakness of Socialism and Communism as opposed to more Democratic systems like Social Democracy, is that the former require a Dictatorship Of The Proletariat to reach the final utopia which was Equality For All, and invariably that supposedly temporary step were power and the Means Of Production are centralized becomes permanent, and they’re exactly the kind of structure that pulls is the worst assholes: Lenin was probably somebody who, at least to begin with, had his hearth in the right place (though with him too, the Power Corrupts dictum applies), whilst Stalin was a pure Sociopath.
I get the impression that a lot of conservatism (in the original sense of word) is really old people yearning for something from their old days, which is just the image they have of their youth beautified by the passage of time.
I can see that with old Communists in the country I lived in: they grew up with the fire of their youthfull belief in Communism, back in the days of Fascist Dictatorship and even more so in the days of the Revolution which overthrew that Dictatorship, so they yearn for that feeling back, not for the Fascist Dictatorship but for that “simple” Communist and the fire of believing it and acting it from their youth.
The thing is, it wasn’t that Communism back then was simpler (sure, the practical implementations of that ideology invariably had simple emotion-appealing slogans accessible to all people of all educational levels, but that was just the Propaganda and the reality of it was never simple), it was they themselves who were comparativelly simple as teenagers and young adults compared to their much older selves of present day.
Then around that you have a lot of young people who are attracted to simple explanations for things - same for Politics as for Religion - many of whom get swayed by those older people who trully believe that Communism of old was simple and pure.
So my theory is that it wasn’t as much conservatives who took over Communist, it’s that the ones who have been there and stuck with it their whole lives became conservative.
In my own experience with actual Communists (I do live in a country which has them), they’re some of the most conservative people around.
I mean, these people are holding on really hard to political slogans which often are a century old or near it and they genuinelly an uncritically think all that stuff is Leftwing even in the face of all evidence that such forms invariably led to the creating of new Elites and to lesser or greater extent Dystopian Societies, never the promised Equalitarian Utopia.
Plenty of Lefties around who trully believe in Leftwing Principles without the insane tribalism of following the dictats of The Party.
Personally I just saw this meme as referencing such traditionalist unthinking muppets who think of themselves as Lefties all the while defending the well installed and entrenched establishment and elites of a few specific countries.
Russia was and is a culturally conservative country. The USSR made some early progress towards equality for women and LGBT folk, and turned it right back around a bit later. Russification under the Czar–trying to get all the diverse ethnic minorities to just be Russian–was simply turned into a Stalinist version of the same thing. The fundamental authoritarianism of the Czar never left, but it was given a Marxist coat of paint.
I’m sorry but this is just wrong. The Soviet Union was the first European country to legalize abortion - and after banning it again, they became the second European country to legalize abortion when they re-legalized it, and their commitment to women’s health surpassed any other country for decades as the Soviets provided abortion on demand rather than after a laundry list of restrictions as most of their contemporaries did. The Soviets also had universal childcare, freeing women from the tyranny of domestic servitude decades before any other developed country would, and the legacy of this effort is so strong that even the capitalist successor regimes in Eastern Europe outperform the ones in the West in terms of having female scientists, heads of government departments, etc. The women of the Soviet Union were the freest women in the world for the entirety of the USSR’s existence.
True the Soviets never came around on LGBT issues, which is a shame.
Not even completely true. After the civil war and prior to the crackdowns of the 30s, gay marriage was legalized, and there were soviet scientists already proclaiming that gender was more akin to a spectrum than to a binary. Sadly, that progress was lost forever after Stalinism.
Unfucking it and refucking it and unfucking it again is not exactly success. No more so than recent changes to abortion in the US. And there’s a whole lot more to Feminism than abortion.
…are you sure? Because if you end up with it unfucked, while in the rest of the world it is still fucked, then I would call that a success even if there was a rocky road to get there.
And the rest of my comment is about how it wasn’t just abortion. You should read it.
Yes, I’m quite sure in the context of my original argument that Russia was and is culturally conservative. A society that goes backwards like that never had a solid feminist culture to begin with.
All across the west we’ve seen rollback of feminist issues over the past decade, do you think that that nullifies all of the victories that have been won? Liberation struggle isn’t like a tech tree that you climb in one direction, it’s a constant back-and-forth battle being waged between the oppressed and the oppressors.
Nullifies, no. Shows that the west doesn’t have a solid feminist culture, yes. Same goes for the old USSR.
Having lived 20 years abroad, including my core years of personal adult development, and having returned to my homeland were I became a member of a small Leftwing party, I keenly notice just how much people are, seemingly unaware of it, frequently shaping their thinking and even practice of being Leftwing on local cultural factors: pushing up in the party the sons and daughters of old hands or selecting people for positions of responsibility based on liking them rather than merit isn’t really being Leftwing (it’s quite literally the opposite of Fair and by being unmeritocratic one actually reduces the chances of success of the party) and people making speeches of the “give shit to my group” (women, teaches, pensioners, whatever) variety isn’t being Leftwing, it’s disguising one’s greed as being “for the group” and has little to do with the common good.
The point being that all political ideologies get adjusted by those who practice tehm and they do it based on what they thing is normal, and most people think “normal” is what they’ve seen around themselves their whole lives, so it’s expect that the political ideologies that end up being successful in a country “go along with the grain of the wood” and adopt the local’s ideas of “normal”.
No, you do not see comrade. All of the people of mother Russia are Eurasians, which is it’s own unique people that have a culture that just so happens to be identical to Russian culture. You westerners just wouldn’t understand our eastern ways…
Well a lot of that can be explained by the fact that conservatives co-opted the left wing movements for communism and largely turned them into dictatorships. These governments endured several decades before collapsing, which allows newer conservatives to think of them as “the good ol days.”
It doesn’t mean they ever were communists. They just stole the name and ruined its reputation.
A simpler explanation is that the people who seek power are the worst of the bunch and they’ll say whatever it takes to get there and keep it - it’s a pretty well know thing since Ancient times that the best rulers are the ones who do NOT want to rule.
Sociopaths will just as easilly sing praises to Marxism-Leninism as they will to the Free Market, so don’t confuse whatever bullshit they spout to get to and stay at the top of the pile in an the power structures created by a specific ideology with their actual beliefs and don’t excuse the failures of the structures created by that ideology that allow such people to get to the top.
Even if the “Revolution” isn’t led by assholes, any power structure which centralizes power and doesn’t have hard to subvert mechanisms for constant change of who is in power, attract the worst vermin and they’re the one who will knifes as many backs as it takes to get it and keep it so they’re far more likely to get it than “good people”. This is true even in Power Duopoly systems like the US, and much worse in power monopolies like the Soviet Union and even Modern Russia.
That blaming of “others” for one’s own failures is just you having internalised the typical propaganda from the power hungry assholes (just as much from the ones portraying themselves as Fascists or from the ones portraying themselves as Communists) to deflect the blame for their own actions away from themselves.
Back to the specifics of your point, the inherent weakness of Socialism and Communism as opposed to more Democratic systems like Social Democracy, is that the former require a Dictatorship Of The Proletariat to reach the final utopia which was Equality For All, and invariably that supposedly temporary step were power and the Means Of Production are centralized becomes permanent, and they’re exactly the kind of structure that pulls is the worst assholes: Lenin was probably somebody who, at least to begin with, had his hearth in the right place (though with him too, the Power Corrupts dictum applies), whilst Stalin was a pure Sociopath.
I don’t disagree with you, but I wasn’t trying to explain the origins of communism, but rather why conservatives would feel nostalgia for it today.
I get the impression that a lot of conservatism (in the original sense of word) is really old people yearning for something from their old days, which is just the image they have of their youth beautified by the passage of time.
I can see that with old Communists in the country I lived in: they grew up with the fire of their youthfull belief in Communism, back in the days of Fascist Dictatorship and even more so in the days of the Revolution which overthrew that Dictatorship, so they yearn for that feeling back, not for the Fascist Dictatorship but for that “simple” Communist and the fire of believing it and acting it from their youth.
The thing is, it wasn’t that Communism back then was simpler (sure, the practical implementations of that ideology invariably had simple emotion-appealing slogans accessible to all people of all educational levels, but that was just the Propaganda and the reality of it was never simple), it was they themselves who were comparativelly simple as teenagers and young adults compared to their much older selves of present day.
Then around that you have a lot of young people who are attracted to simple explanations for things - same for Politics as for Religion - many of whom get swayed by those older people who trully believe that Communism of old was simple and pure.
So my theory is that it wasn’t as much conservatives who took over Communist, it’s that the ones who have been there and stuck with it their whole lives became conservative.