• mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    As a theory, sure. I just have yet to see it expressed in any functional way that didn’t devolve into a shit show. See: Russia, etc.,

    I think it’s telling that so many wish for a return to communism but still defend Putin’s atrocities. :|

    • Filthmontane@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Russia devolved into capitalism. Funding a military is incredibly expensive and necessary when a communist country wants to exist in a world with the United States. This creates a militant economy that must be centrally governed to coordinate this military might. True democratic socialism is impossible as long as the United States exists as an imperialist force.

      • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        True democratic socialism is impossible as long as the United States exists as an imperialist force.

        1, That’s silly, there’s tons of democratic socialist countries that are doing just fine - today! Bolivia, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand - think the US fucks with their way of governing?

        2, the USSR was never a type of democratic socialism. Period. They literally called it ‘soviet democracy’ distinctly, and it meant something WILDLY different that the kinds of democratic socialism we see in the above listed countries.

        Your premise is faulty, built upon an imagined soviet union that did not practice the tenants you’re endorsing.

        • vga@sopuli.xyz
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          3 months ago

          1, That’s silly, there’s tons of democratic socialist countries that are doing just fine - today! Bolivia, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand - think the US fucks with their way of governing?

          All of these countries are free market economies, though. If you classify a country that has public programs as socialist, then USA is a socialist country.

          Also, just as a detail, Switzerland is probably one of the most capitalistic countries in the world. They have nearly a flat tax rate, very small amounts of corporate / capital gains taxation and a health care system that is nearly privatized. And it’s all working pretty damned well for them.

        • uis@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          Canada

          Ok, how did Canada managed to get on this list? And Switszerland?

          They literally called it ‘soviet democracy’

          Parlamentary democracy is real thing. Usually it is called parlamentary republic. Nothing special, most of Europe works this way.

            • uis@lemm.ee
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              3 months ago

              yeah, it is, and it’s not what the soviets were doing.

              Even article you linked says it was parlament with delegates.

              • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                few parliaments are made out of soviets - worker delegations - lol.

                but if you’d actually read the article I linked you’d have seen:

                In contrast to earlier democratic models à la John Locke and Montesquieu, no separation of powers exists in soviet democracy.

                show me where that’s a thing. no, actually, don’t bother.

                you’re too stupid to continue engaging, I’m not going to enlighten you, and you aren’t going to bullshit me any further.

                • uis@lemm.ee
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                  3 months ago

                  In contrast to earlier democratic models à la John Locke and Montesquieu, no separation of powers exists in soviet democracy.

                  And I’m didn’t say parlament should be strictly legislative body.

        • dwraf_of_ignorance@programming.dev
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          3 months ago

          I don’t think they are socialist democracy but social democracy. There is a distinction. I don’t think any country is a socialist country in morden history. There where some movement that were trying to be socialist but it either fell into dictatorship (USSR, North Korea, etc)or it was squashed by USA(Chile, and other central/ south american countries). The most successful one was that of Chile, until US backed coup overthrew the democratically elected government in favour of dictatorship.

          • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            I guess you can stick your head into the ground and pretend democratic socialism isn’t a thing.

            https://finance.yahoo.com/news/top-15-democratic-socialist-countries-181857008.html

            it’s stupid, but stupidity is always an option.

            Of course, if you just toss these countries’ accomplishments away, you’re really just undermining the entire premise, because without these successes the record of ‘socialism’ gets a whole fucking lot worse.

            lol

            • Filthmontane@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              You’re citing a capitalist finance website to prove your point about socialism. You seem to be confused between social democracy and democratic socialism. I understand because they seem so similar that they must be basically the same thing, right? Nope.

              The Nordic model is a form of social democracy. They take many of the benefits that socialism provides and builds them into a capitalist economy. Democratic socialism is an actual form of a worker owned an operated economy.

              If you’re ever in doubt, ask the question, “who owns the means of production?” If the answer is huge megacorporations and wealthy billionaires, then it’s a capitalist economy. If the answer is the working class, it’s socialist.

              • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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                2 months ago

                if you just toss these countries’ accomplishments away, you’re really just undermining the entire premise, because without these successes the record of ‘socialism’ gets a whole fucking lot worse.

                Ok, then.

      • uis@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        True democratic socialism is impossible as long as the United States exists as an imperialist force.

        Not sure how to explain, but I don’t think so.

        • Filthmontane@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          The US has destroyed every socialist country in history that didn’t have a strong enough military to fight them off

    • rwtwm@feddit.uk
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      3 months ago

      My concern with this line of argument is that it bundles consequences from a system of government up with the consequences of trade embargoes and other hostile actions from capitalist economies. That doesn’t make the actions of the dictators in those countries justifiable in any way, but might have precipitated conditions that made them more likely.

      How would communist nations have fared if the US had taken a ‘live and let live’ approach to them? The approach during the cold war was that they couldn’t be allowed to succeed. That led to the sort of standards of living where dictatorship tends to thrive. Note this isn’t unique to communist countries. Look at the Republican party in the US, now that Neoliberalism is failing.

      • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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        3 months ago

        It also ignores that Socialism in AES states has generally resulted in mass reductions in poverty, increases in literacy, education, home ownership, and life expectancy.

          • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml
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            3 months ago

            You’re a fucking idiot if you think the problem with those countries is communism and not unceasing imperial violence targeted at them from the global core of wealth and fascism.

            But even living under conditions of siege warfare they still manage to provide housing and healthcare to their people which make them objectively better places to live than the US, which deliberately keeps a large population homeless because of the coercion it creates for the working class.

          • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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            3 months ago

            Do you think changing Mode of Production magically transforms levels of development? Typical liberal.

            • prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works
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              3 months ago

              Perfect, no response except to throw a question and “insult”

              This is why you won’t be taken seriously ever.

              • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                3 months ago

                I already answered you, living in the US is currently better than some AES states, because development isn’t something magical. However, I would absolutely pick an AES state over the US in the comimg years. Hell, the PRC is in many ways ahead of the US for the average worker already.

                • prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works
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                  3 months ago

                  Serious question because it is relevant to the discussion, do you currently have a job?

                  Do you live in one of these western countries?

                  What is your personal frame of reference that tells you you’d have a better life than where you are in Cuba or Laos or North Korea?

                  What would china give you right now that you would move there for?

                  Please, be specific so I can understand.

                  Pretend you had a chance to convince me instead of angrily and frustratedly arguing your point in a defensive manner.

                  I believe in socialism, it’s been incorporated into democracy quite well actually and provided significant quality of life for its citizens.

                  Communism on the other hand has largely always moved to an authoritarian beat, China and Laos and Cuba and North Korea are all prime examples of this in the present day. Much like the two party system in the USA has hindered its democracy I don’t see how a one party system with strong central rule is not a HUGE step back from that. At least we have a semblance of choice and the mechanisms to fix what is broken.

                  Why do you prefer a form of government that takes choice away from its citizens?

                  • Why do you prefer a form of government that takes choice away from its citizens?

                    We don’t, we support proletarian democracy, not bourgeoisie electoralism.

                    Anna L. Strong, This Soviet World, Chapter III: The Dictatorship

                    The heads of government in America are not the real rulers. I have talked with many of them from the President down. Some of them would really like to use power for the people. They feel baffled by their inability to do so; they blame other branches of government, legislatures, courts. But they haven’t analyzed the real reason. The difficulty is that they haven’t power to use. Neither the President nor Congress nor the common people, under any form of organization whatever, can legally dispose of the oil of Rockefeller or the gold in the vaults of Morgan. If they try, they will be checked by other branches of government, which was designed as a system of checks and balances precisely to prevent such “usurpation of power.” Private capitalists own the means of production and thus rule the lives of millions. Government, however chosen, is limited to the function of making regulations which will help capitalism run more easily by adjusting relations between property and protecting it against the “lawless” demands of non-owners. This constitutes what Marxists call the dictatorship of property. “The talk about pure democracy is but a bourgeois screen,” says Stalin, “to conceal the fact that equality between exploiters and exploited is impossible. . . . It was invented to hide the sores of capitalism . . . and lend it moral strength.”

                    EPUB

                  • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                    3 months ago

                    Serious question because it is relevant to the discussion, do you currently have a job?

                    Yes, full-time, though the plight of the unemployed and unhoused is equally important. Not telling you any more, not doxxing myself. Additionally, it absolutely is not relevant.

                    Do you live in one of these western countries?

                    Yes.

                    What is your personal frame of reference that tells you you’d have a better life than where you are in Cuba or Laos or North Korea?

                    The US is a dying Empire. It has no long-term future, conditions are worsening. Disparity is rising and will continue to do so, and Real Wages will continue to stagnate. The world is already throwing the US off their backs at increasing rates.

                    Meanwhile, Socialism has stable growth over time that doesn’t depend on self-destructive systems like Capitalism or Imperialism.

                    I believe in socialism, it’s been incorporated into democracy quite well actually and provided significant quality of life for its citizens.

                    Social Democracy is not Socialism. I am not talking about Capitalism where “the government does some extra stuff.” Social Democracy in the Global North depends on Imperialism to support itself, and worker protections are crumbling as disparity rises. Social Democracy is a temporary concession.

                    Communism on the other hand has largely always moved to an authoritarian beat, China and Laos and Cuba and North Korea are all prime examples of this in the present day. Much like the two party system in the USA has hindered its democracy I don’t see how a one party system with strong central rule is not a HUGE step back from that. At least we have a semblance of choice and the mechanisms to fix what is broken.

                    Do you actually know how these countries function, democratically and politically? This isn’t a gotcha, I want to know to what extent you’re familiar so we can even begin to talk about them. Even then, North Korea isn’t a One-Party State.

                    Why do you prefer a form of government that takes choice away from its citizens?

                    I don’t, that’s why I am a Communist and not a Liberal. Come on, this was a useless gotcha.

      • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        maybe, before the '56 invasion this could have happened, but I’m dubious. And after Hungary, lol, fuck right off thinking the capitalist world should support your communist brutality.

    • uis@lemm.ee
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      3 months ago

      See: Russia, etc.,

      Last time I checked sheikh-esque palaces and yachts are something that is not communism. Same goes for Putin’s oligarchs.

      I think it’s telling that so many wish for a return to communism but still defend Putin’s atrocities. :|

      For some reason I see them less than few years ago. I wonder why…

      • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Putin’s oligarchs.

        And where did Putin come from?

        For some reason I see them less than few years ago. I wonder why…

        probably because they’re losing their love of this special military operation slightly exceeding it’s 3-days-to-kiev plan. Those dumb sonsabitches brought their dress uniforms for the parades they knew were going to happen.

        lol

        • uis@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          And where did Putin come from?

          Some from behind desk near him in KGB, some are his neighbours.

          First can be solved with lustrations. KGB, FSB, NSA, FBI - they greatly harm society.

          Both can be reduced by destruction of iron throne. “All power power to soviets” v2. Most of Europe already into parlamentarism, so nothing unusual.

          • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            Both can be reduced by destruction of iron throne. “All power power to soviets” v2.

            This would be grand, good luck! Make it happen.

        • eatCasserole@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          I see China building renewable energy capacity, and crazy fast trains, faster than the rest of the world combined.

          I see Cuba, a tiny island nation, still independent after 64 years of brutal US sanctions.

          I see Vietnam, a popular retirement destination for American ‘expats’.

          I see Russia, being fairly shitty and also 100% capitalist for 25 years.

          Hmm, seems like you may have been told a bunch of times that communism is bad but never really looked into it.

          • Rinox@feddit.it
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            3 months ago

            I see China starting to prosper as soon as they dropped the Communist economic model and opened up to capitalism, private ownership and free trade. I see Vietnam starting to do the same.

            I see NK, a more developed nation than SK right after the war, very close to their communist allies and having the second biggest economy as trade partner and neighbor (USSR first, China now) now being irrelevant economically while you can’t even enter or exit the country freely. In the meanwhile SK managed to become a global power. Btw, what’s up with communist countries and not letting anyone enter or exit the country freely?

            I see Vietnam, a popular retirement destination for American ‘expats’.

            Pretty sure this has nothing to do with communism. Happens also in Indonesia or Thailand and has all to do with them being poor as fuck and the huge human trafficking business happening in those countries. And those “expats” are the worst of the worst scum on earth, trust me

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              3 months ago

              The USA and the international institutions they control have done an impressive job making it look like open markets equals prosperity, but when you look just under the surface, a different picture emerges.

              Vietnam, for example, was denied access to IMF loans, while trying to rebuild after an absolutely brutal war that basically set them back to the stone age. Only once they agreed to certain liberal reforms were they allowed access to the funds and resources they needed.

              If you’re not really paying attention, it looks like you’re right.

          • Soulg@sh.itjust.works
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            3 months ago

            China is extremely capitalist lmao

            I’m not fucking defending capitalism or demonizing communism, it’s just never worked. I see absolutely zero reason to expect any difference if we tried it in the us

            • eatCasserole@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              Nuh-uh, Xi pressed the big red communism button and now all the capitalism is gone!

              [is joke, obviously that’s not how it works]

              “It’s just never worked” is ignorant though. Every nation that has tried to dump capitalism has has successes and failures, and there are many factors that contribute to each. Economies are extremely complex and you simply can’t say anything intelligent without getting at least a bit more in-depth than “works/doesn’t work”.

            • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              3 months ago

              China is Socialist with Chinese Characteristics, the CPC practices large and extensive levels of State Planning and the People’s Democracy structure means the Capitalists in China do not control nor guide the State.

              Capitalism exists in China as a concession, it isn’t some fully Socialized state, but it is a transitional economy.

              Read China Has Billionaires.

        • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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          3 months ago

          So large increases in literacy rates, life expectancy, home ownership, education access, healthcare access, and democratization of society is “devolving into a shitshow?”

          Do you think Russians were better off under the thumb of the Tsar? Do you think Cubans were happier as slaves in Batista’s US-backed slave-state? What point are you genuinely trying to make?

          • TexMexBazooka@lemm.ee
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            3 months ago

            What you’re talking about here are results of industrialization. The same can be said for capitalist countries during the Industrial Revolution.

            • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              3 months ago

              They were not. The USSR had free healthcare, education, incredibly cheap housing, all while it was far less developed than Western Countries. Development helped, yes, but what helped the most was Proletarian control and direction, not Bourgeois.

          • Soulg@sh.itjust.works
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            3 months ago

            First part is a result of industrialization.

            Second part, no they weren’t, but that just means that they were worse off before, not that they were great afterwards.

            I genuinely think the idea of communism is great, but human nature will ensure that it will never be successful. There will always be someone who gets greedy and takes more for themselves in the pursuit of wealth and power.

            • human nature will ensure that it will never be successful

              Human nature is to be kind and helpful. Humans are social creatures. We wouldn’t have survived for thousands of years if everyone said “fuck you got mine”.

              Even if that were true, you are saying we should continue with the system that rewards stuff like greed, rather than try to have a system that doesn’t. “Human nature” is an argument for socialism/communism.

            • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              3 months ago

              First part is a result of industrialization.

              Partially, the other huge part is that the products of production were funneled into safety nets and state projects like railways and universities, providing free education and healthcare, and not corporate profits.

              I genuinely think the idea of communism is great, but human nature will ensure that it will never be successful. There will always be someone who gets greedy and takes more for themselves in the pursuit of wealth and power.

              What’s considered “Human Nature” changes alongside Mode of Production. It isn’t Human Nature to be greedy, greed is more often expressed within Capitalism.

              Additionally, wealth disparity went way down in the USSR. It wasn’t a case where some few individuals profited massively and others lived in squalor, wealth disparity skyrocketed after it collapsed.

              Are you familiar with Marxist Theory? You have a decidedly Idealist take, rather than Materialist.