Exclusive analysis finds the rate of maternal deaths in Texas increased 56% from 2019 to 2022, compared with just 11% nationwide during the same time period.
I actually agree with a good chunk of what you said. I thank you for not strawmanning me or making presumptions of being like how you described. The Bible advocates for caring for the poor, not judging hypocritically, for caring for the suffering and sick, and that I believe Trump is an antichrist and not Christian at all.
I’d also like to note that I agree with Abortion if it’s simply removing a dead foetus. I see that as less of an abortion and more of removing a dead foetus that’s already dead.
As for abortions in case of the pregnancy might kill the woman, those are exceedingly rare as is, but should still be allowed.
Anyway, for the question at hand:
I’ll skip out in the commandment showing murder is bad, but of course murder being bad is a necessary principle.
We see a few instances in the Bible of unborn children being human lives. A notable example recorded by St Luke is John the Baptist. He leapt in the womb when Mary appeared carrying Jesus in her womb
Luke 1:41-42 ESV
And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
Jacob and Esau fought each other in the womb, so were clearly conscious
Genesis 25:21-23 ESV
And Isaac prayed to the Lord for his wife, because she was barren. And the Lord granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived. The children struggled together within her, and she said, “If it is thus, why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the Lord. And the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.”
Instances of this are even recorded scientifically
King David writes about children even being made by God in the poetry of the 139th Psalm
Psalm 139:13-14 ESV
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.
So as the Bible doesn’t say “thou shalt not kill a foetus”, it is implying that foetus are human life. Worth noting that the Bible doesn’t explicitly mention the Triune nature of God as we define, but the nature comes from reading the Bible and revealed through them and what it shows about each Person of God. It also doesn’t explicitly condemn slavery but it’s frequently protrayed in a bad light. Jesus doesn’t demand worship, but is shown being God and receiving it. So it doesn’t have to be explicitly said. The Bible as a whole isn’t a book of laws or a legal code.
I’d also like to note that I agree with Abortion if it’s simply removing a dead foetus. I see that as less of an abortion and more of removing a dead foetus that’s already dead.
Yes, that’s not abortion, that’s just D&C after the foetus died.
As for abortions in case of the pregnancy might kill the woman, those are exceedingly rare as is, but should still be allowed.
But it’s the same D&C procedure whether the foetus was deliberately terminated or it died of natural causes, and a doctor performing a D&C is at real and genuine risk of losing their career and going to prison, and a woman in need of D&C is at risk of losing her fertility or her life from sepsis or other complications. Criminalizing healthcare kills women. Doctors need a lot of good luck keeping their job in a red state if they agree to perform a D&C. Don’t rely on facts winning a case when anti-abortion rhetoric is one of the two main ways republicans have got and kept power.
It’s clear that you think God loves unborn children. Do you think God loves women who stillbirth? They are at genuine risk of jail time because their baby died. Do you think God loves children who were raped? Do you think God wants rape victims to bear their rapists children? Do you believe that God always chooses the baby over the mother, no matter the cost or the consequences? Do you think God doesn’t like it when we intervene in matters of life and death?
Do you, and this is the central question, and the only one that matters really, believe that God wants the government to put doctors and women in prison whenever an abortion is performed, and do you think God wants the increased maternal death rates amongst otherwise healthy women who have miscarried that these new policies are creating? Before you answer, please realise that early miscarriage is far, far more common and far far less admitted in public than people who have never admitted to having a miscarriage with other women in a safe environment realise. Are miscarriages hateful to God too? Is it the woman’s fault, and should she go to prison if she can’t prove her miscarriage was natural?
The second question is this: does God care more about putting women and doctors in prison after a foetus dies more than God cares about feeding the poor and the homeless? More than looking after foreigners? More than loving your neighbour and your enemy? Is it more important to love God or to love money?
Because what I see in america is a lot of people justifying being super condemnatory about women and immigrants and hating on helping, all in the name of religion, and I just don’t see much of “love God and love your neighbour”. No wonder young people are leaving the american church in droves. What’s all that hate got that might draw them in? Maybe if it had more for them than the promise of jailing women and doctors, they might see the point, but a lot of church folks can’t get past the jailing of women and doctors and the condemnation of sinners they judge to be particularly scandalously sinful, unless of course they’re republicans or church leaders, in which case denial that anything went wrong. Not forgiveness, that would require an admission of guilt. Just minimisation and cover up.
I remember stories about Jesus getting cross with the temple being full of money and the religious leaders acting pious while making up hard and harsh rules for everyone else to follow (not so much themselves). Is it a relevant story for today? Isn’t it really sad and far from following commandments if the church gets into the judging others and condemnation business? I don’t think it was ever supposed to be about big theatres, big money, politics, professional music and plenty of prison time for plenty of sinners. Hadn’t it better get back very urgently to what Jesus actually said to do?
It’s clear that you think God loves unborn children. Do you think God loves women who stillbirth?
Yes. I never advocated jailing women who stillbirth
Do you think God loves children who were raped? Do you think God wants rape victims to bear their rapists children?
If someone is raped and gets pregnant and seeks an abortion, then it’s the rapist who committed murder.
Do you believe that God always chooses the baby over the mother, no matter the cost or the consequences? Do you think God doesn’t like it when we intervene in matters of life and death?
Again, this is exceedingly rare. But in such cases denying abortions would he wrong as you’d kill both the woman and child.
Do you, and this is the central question, and the only one that matters really, believe that God wants the government to put doctors and women in prison whenever an abortion is performed, and do you think God wants the increased maternal death rates amongst otherwise healthy women who have miscarried that these new policies are creating? Before you answer, please realise that early miscarriage is far, far more common and far far less admitted in public than people who have never admitted to having a miscarriage with other women in a safe environment realise. Are miscarriages hateful to God too? Is it the woman’s fault, and should she go to prison if she can’t prove her miscarriage was natural?
I don’t think we should investigate women who have miscarriages. It’s between them and God if they intentionally caused it.
The second question is this: does God care more about putting women and doctors in prison after a foetus dies more than God cares about feeding the poor and the homeless? More than looking after foreigners? More than loving your neighbour and your enemy? ls it more important to love God or to love money?
God doesn’t care more or less about things. Every sin we commit on this earth is another bang of the hammer on His hands, the sin that we committed and killed Him.
Because what see in america is a lot of people justifying being super condemnatory about women and immigrants and hating on helping, all in the name of religion, and just don’t see much of “love God and love your neighbour”. No wonder young people are leaving the american church in droves. VWhat’s all that hate got that might draw them in? Maybe if it had more for them than the promise of jailing women and doctors, they might see the point, but a lot of church folks can’t get past the jailing of women and doctors and the condemnation of sinners they judge to be particularly scandalously sinful, unless of course they’re republicans or church leaders, in which case denial that anything went wrong. Not forgiveness, that would require an admission of guilt. Just minimisation and cover up.
Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
[21] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [23] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
What Christians do doesn’t define Christianity. But we also must realise that we cannot bend the word of God to say whatever we want it to say. This goes both ways, I think. Like people trying to bend the verse about it easier for a camel to get through an eye of a needle than a rich man getting into heaven.
I remember stories about Jesus getting cross with the temple being full of money and the religious leaders acting pious while making up hard and harsh rules for everyone else to follow (not so much themselves). Is it a relevant story for today? lsn’t it really sad and far from following commandments if the church gets into the judging others and condemnation business? don’t think it was ever supposed to be about big theatres, big money, politics, professional music and plenty of prison time for plenty of sinners. Hadn’t it better get back very urgently to what Jesus actually said to do?
Yes, that story is still relevant. But the Church must stand up for all injustice. Including if it means that children are being killed. In the same way we should stand against the destruction of the earth through climate change, black people being unjustly killed by American police, dying due to lack of healthcare, etc
The Bible literally gives instructions for abortions. Numbers 5:11-31. It has no moral issues with terminating a fetus, doesn’t call a fetus a person, doesn’t call it murder.
None of your quoted examples negate the Bible’s explicit support of abortion in this passage.
Even if the Bible did think fetuses were live humans, it also explicitly supports parents murdering their kids. Including the story of Abraham, and God killing Jesus. It’s totally cool with the Bible to kill kids, if the kid belongs to you and you get the vibe “God” wants it. God does it a LOT. Sacrificing your kid for war is considered pretty standard in the Bible as well.
[11] And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, [12] “Speak to the people of Israel, If any man’s wife goes astray and breaks faith with him, [13] if a man lies with her sexually, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and she is undetected though she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her, since she was not taken in the act, [14] and if the spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself, or if the spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife, though she has not defiled herself, [15] then the man shall bring his wife to the priest and bring the offering required of her, a tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of remembrance, bringing iniquity to remembrance. [16] “And the priest shall bring her near and set her before the Lord. [17] And the priest shall take holy water in an earthenware vessel and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. [18] And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord and unbind the hair of the woman’s head and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. And in his hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. [19] Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, ‘If no man has lain with you, and if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while you were under your husband’s authority, be free from this water of bitterness that brings the curse. [20] But if you have gone astray, though you are under your husband’s authority, and if you have defiled yourself, and some man other than your husband has lain with you, [21] then’ (let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse, and say to the woman) ‘the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your thigh fall away and your body swell. [22] May this water that brings the curse pass into your bowels and make your womb swell and your thigh fall away.’ And the woman shall say, ‘Amen, Amen.’ [23] “Then the priest shall write these curses in a book and wash them off into the water of bitterness. [24] And he shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain. [25] And the priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy out of the woman’s hand and shall wave the grain offering before the Lord and bring it to the altar. [26] And the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering, as its memorial portion, and burn it on the altar, and afterward shall make the woman drink the water. [27] And when he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has broken faith with her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall swell, and her thigh shall fall away, and the woman shall become a curse among her people. [28] But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be free and shall conceive children. [29] “This is the law in cases of jealousy, when a wife, though under her husband’s authority, goes astray and defiles herself, [30] or when the spirit of jealousy comes over a man and he is jealous of his wife. Then he shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall carry out for her all this law. [31] The man shall be free from iniquity, but the woman shall bear her iniquity.”
There’s absolutely no mention of abortion here- in fact, verse 28 makes it clear that she “shall be free to conceive”, so it shows that she wasn’t even pregnant to begin with. It’s clearly talking about a woman becoming infertile if she cheats on her husband, and nothing to do with an abortion or terminating a pregnancy. I don’t know what conclusions you jumped to in order to even think this was about abortion
Also - parents murdering their kids - you realised that God explicitly stopped Abraham from murdering Isaac? It was about if he’d remain faithful to God even after his prayer is answered. God did NOT want Isaac to die, thus he provided a sacrificial ram.
With Jesus - Jesus wasn’t merely a human kid - Jesus is God himself. Jesus is the same God who created the earth and everything in it. Jesus is the same God that we betrayed. Yet He died for us. What Abraham sacrificed was merely a ram, while God sacrificed Himself for us. Because God is perfectly merciful. He made the perfect sacrifice for what WE did. He lived the life we should have lived and died the death that we deserved. You cannot see this story and sum it up in “god supports us killing our kids”
I actually agree with a good chunk of what you said. I thank you for not strawmanning me or making presumptions of being like how you described. The Bible advocates for caring for the poor, not judging hypocritically, for caring for the suffering and sick, and that I believe Trump is an antichrist and not Christian at all.
I’d also like to note that I agree with Abortion if it’s simply removing a dead foetus. I see that as less of an abortion and more of removing a dead foetus that’s already dead.
As for abortions in case of the pregnancy might kill the woman, those are exceedingly rare as is, but should still be allowed.
Anyway, for the question at hand:
I’ll skip out in the commandment showing murder is bad, but of course murder being bad is a necessary principle.
We see a few instances in the Bible of unborn children being human lives. A notable example recorded by St Luke is John the Baptist. He leapt in the womb when Mary appeared carrying Jesus in her womb
Luke 1:41-42 ESV
Jacob and Esau fought each other in the womb, so were clearly conscious
Genesis 25:21-23 ESV
Instances of this are even recorded scientifically
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/video-shows-twins-fighting-womb/story?id=17848740
King David writes about children even being made by God in the poetry of the 139th Psalm
Psalm 139:13-14 ESV
So as the Bible doesn’t say “thou shalt not kill a foetus”, it is implying that foetus are human life. Worth noting that the Bible doesn’t explicitly mention the Triune nature of God as we define, but the nature comes from reading the Bible and revealed through them and what it shows about each Person of God. It also doesn’t explicitly condemn slavery but it’s frequently protrayed in a bad light. Jesus doesn’t demand worship, but is shown being God and receiving it. So it doesn’t have to be explicitly said. The Bible as a whole isn’t a book of laws or a legal code.
Yes, that’s not abortion, that’s just D&C after the foetus died.
But it’s the same D&C procedure whether the foetus was deliberately terminated or it died of natural causes, and a doctor performing a D&C is at real and genuine risk of losing their career and going to prison, and a woman in need of D&C is at risk of losing her fertility or her life from sepsis or other complications. Criminalizing healthcare kills women. Doctors need a lot of good luck keeping their job in a red state if they agree to perform a D&C. Don’t rely on facts winning a case when anti-abortion rhetoric is one of the two main ways republicans have got and kept power.
It’s clear that you think God loves unborn children. Do you think God loves women who stillbirth? They are at genuine risk of jail time because their baby died. Do you think God loves children who were raped? Do you think God wants rape victims to bear their rapists children? Do you believe that God always chooses the baby over the mother, no matter the cost or the consequences? Do you think God doesn’t like it when we intervene in matters of life and death?
Do you, and this is the central question, and the only one that matters really, believe that God wants the government to put doctors and women in prison whenever an abortion is performed, and do you think God wants the increased maternal death rates amongst otherwise healthy women who have miscarried that these new policies are creating? Before you answer, please realise that early miscarriage is far, far more common and far far less admitted in public than people who have never admitted to having a miscarriage with other women in a safe environment realise. Are miscarriages hateful to God too? Is it the woman’s fault, and should she go to prison if she can’t prove her miscarriage was natural?
The second question is this: does God care more about putting women and doctors in prison after a foetus dies more than God cares about feeding the poor and the homeless? More than looking after foreigners? More than loving your neighbour and your enemy? Is it more important to love God or to love money?
Because what I see in america is a lot of people justifying being super condemnatory about women and immigrants and hating on helping, all in the name of religion, and I just don’t see much of “love God and love your neighbour”. No wonder young people are leaving the american church in droves. What’s all that hate got that might draw them in? Maybe if it had more for them than the promise of jailing women and doctors, they might see the point, but a lot of church folks can’t get past the jailing of women and doctors and the condemnation of sinners they judge to be particularly scandalously sinful, unless of course they’re republicans or church leaders, in which case denial that anything went wrong. Not forgiveness, that would require an admission of guilt. Just minimisation and cover up.
I remember stories about Jesus getting cross with the temple being full of money and the religious leaders acting pious while making up hard and harsh rules for everyone else to follow (not so much themselves). Is it a relevant story for today? Isn’t it really sad and far from following commandments if the church gets into the judging others and condemnation business? I don’t think it was ever supposed to be about big theatres, big money, politics, professional music and plenty of prison time for plenty of sinners. Hadn’t it better get back very urgently to what Jesus actually said to do?
Yes. I never advocated jailing women who stillbirth
If someone is raped and gets pregnant and seeks an abortion, then it’s the rapist who committed murder.
Again, this is exceedingly rare. But in such cases denying abortions would he wrong as you’d kill both the woman and child.
I don’t think we should investigate women who have miscarriages. It’s between them and God if they intentionally caused it.
God doesn’t care more or less about things. Every sin we commit on this earth is another bang of the hammer on His hands, the sin that we committed and killed Him.
Matthew 7:21-23 ESV [21] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [23] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
What Christians do doesn’t define Christianity. But we also must realise that we cannot bend the word of God to say whatever we want it to say. This goes both ways, I think. Like people trying to bend the verse about it easier for a camel to get through an eye of a needle than a rich man getting into heaven.
Yes, that story is still relevant. But the Church must stand up for all injustice. Including if it means that children are being killed. In the same way we should stand against the destruction of the earth through climate change, black people being unjustly killed by American police, dying due to lack of healthcare, etc
The Bible literally gives instructions for abortions. Numbers 5:11-31. It has no moral issues with terminating a fetus, doesn’t call a fetus a person, doesn’t call it murder.
None of your quoted examples negate the Bible’s explicit support of abortion in this passage.
Even if the Bible did think fetuses were live humans, it also explicitly supports parents murdering their kids. Including the story of Abraham, and God killing Jesus. It’s totally cool with the Bible to kill kids, if the kid belongs to you and you get the vibe “God” wants it. God does it a LOT. Sacrificing your kid for war is considered pretty standard in the Bible as well.
I’m sorry but… what?
Numbers 5:11-31 ESV
There’s absolutely no mention of abortion here- in fact, verse 28 makes it clear that she “shall be free to conceive”, so it shows that she wasn’t even pregnant to begin with. It’s clearly talking about a woman becoming infertile if she cheats on her husband, and nothing to do with an abortion or terminating a pregnancy. I don’t know what conclusions you jumped to in order to even think this was about abortion
Also - parents murdering their kids - you realised that God explicitly stopped Abraham from murdering Isaac? It was about if he’d remain faithful to God even after his prayer is answered. God did NOT want Isaac to die, thus he provided a sacrificial ram.
With Jesus - Jesus wasn’t merely a human kid - Jesus is God himself. Jesus is the same God who created the earth and everything in it. Jesus is the same God that we betrayed. Yet He died for us. What Abraham sacrificed was merely a ram, while God sacrificed Himself for us. Because God is perfectly merciful. He made the perfect sacrifice for what WE did. He lived the life we should have lived and died the death that we deserved. You cannot see this story and sum it up in “god supports us killing our kids”