• the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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    14 hours ago

    I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.

    • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
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      6 hours ago

      Ethnic Cleansing has always been a cornerstone of Zionism.

      Origins of Zionism

      Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.

      Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.

      That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.

      Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.

      Quote

      Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.

      The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.

      An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.

      Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid

      Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.

      This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.

      The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:

      Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:

      While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements

      The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.

      The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.

      Apartheid Evidence

      Amnesty Report

      Human Rights Watch Report

      B’TSelem Report with quick Explainer

      Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing

      Peace Process and Solution

      Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution

      How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution

      ‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe

      One State Solution, Foreign Affairs

      Historian Works on the History
        • Sundial@lemm.ee
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          13 hours ago

          Id rather they be tried and convicted like we did to the Nazis at the Nuremeberg trials, but I’ll settle for them leaving, sure. Why must the Palestinians accept their presence when their entire presence was on the mass displacement and genocide of their people? They’re not even sorry for any of it, they’re literally doubling down on it all and continuing it on a scale never seen before.

          Why are you so shocked that militia groups were formed to counter an oppressive genocidal colony? Also, keep in mind Israel literally helped prop Hamas up to delegtimize the Palestinians in the eyes of the international community. It just came back to bite them in the ass.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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            13 hours ago

            The population of Israel is almost 10 million people. Much like Trump’s plan to deport around that many brown people, it’s only doable with concentration camps.

            Maybe the solution to genocide isn’t more genocide.

            • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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              13 hours ago

              I’ve always thought a disarmed single state solution with a protected right of return to the country (not the specific land parcel) would be a hilarious end to Israel. Let actual democracy destroy the apartheid state.

            • Sundial@lemm.ee
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              13 hours ago

              Majority of Israel support what their government is doing in Gaza. This won’t end just because a foreign power decides to enforce a ceasefire and maybe some kind of simple recognition of Palestinian statehood. There’s way too much bad blood, and most of it is on Israel’s hands. If this happens we’ll have a middle eastern version of North and South Korea. And given how the US backs Israel unconditionally, it’s only a matter of time before they re-attempt their settlement of all of Palestine. Because who’s going to stop them?

              • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
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                5 hours ago

                Have you read any of the works of Ilan Pappe or Avi Schlaim on a One-State Solution? If not I think you’d benefit from their findings and perspectives.

                While Ethnic Cleansing is fundamental to Zionism, I don’t consider it fundamental to Israelis. A One-State Solution where Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights is possible if not inevitable considering the settlements in the West Bank.

                I do agree that unconditional US support of Israel and Zionism is the main problem preventing any semblance of peace. A Regime Change is necessary.

                How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution

                ‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe

                One State Solution, Foreign Affairs

                • Sundial@lemm.ee
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                  13 hours ago

                  No, but I did explain why a major shift in Israel’s dynamic is required for any kind of meaningful peace. Just like countires like Canada or America did with its First Nations population as means of mending relations given how many horrific things hey did. I never said anything about genocide, all I said that a lot of land should be given back and if people don’t like to live in a Palestinian state then they should leave. Nowhere did I say anything about any kind of concentration camps or anything of the sort.

                  A bullshit empty platitude of a two-state solution made by the leader of a nation on the other side of the world that is clearly meant to appease both sides of a conflict while wholeheartedly arming and supporting one is not a a solution at all.

                  • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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                    12 hours ago

                    Yes, I know what you did do. It’s about what you didn’t do.

                    I am not a random soapbox for your political points. If you can’t address what I said, you’re essentially just trolling.

          • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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            13 hours ago

            Okay, so where should they go? If Israel is dissolved and the territory handed back to the Palestinian people, there will be a massive ethnic cleansing at the hands of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran. Extracting every single Israeli would create yet another refugee crisis somewhere in the world - speaking strictly in terms of how to materially support all these people.

            • small44@lemmy.world
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              11 hours ago

              That the lame excuse that was also used to justify maintaining the apartheid in south africa

            • Sundial@lemm.ee
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              13 hours ago

              Wherever they want. Why is it on Palestine, Lebanon, or anyone else to figure out this problem that Israel created in the first place?

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                13 hours ago

                That will require an agreement with the host nations. That is not guaranteed by any means, nor is their safety before, during, or after the evacuation.

                  • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                    12 hours ago

                    It’s not impossible, but I’m saying it isn’t guaranteed to be successful. I doubt Israel will agree to this arrangement, and I don’t know what nations will be willing to host them indefinitely. And given that Osama bin Laden orchestrated 9/11 partly because of the US’s alliance with the Jews, do you think these groups that hate Jews so much won’t consider striking their new homes?

                • SaltySalamander@fedia.io
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                  11 hours ago

                  I’d honestly prefer that they stop indiscriminately bombing schools and hospitals full of displaced Palestinians. Failing that, the moon sounds like a right fine spot to put them.

                  • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                    11 hours ago

                    The IDF has about 634,000 personnel in total, but I suppose the other ~90% of the country that isn’t shooting the rockets has to go too. Osama bin Laden would be so happy to hear you say that.