Yea, what Tunic did was something that was not quite standard in the “days of yore” IMHO, but at least it was being done here and there. Now you open a case and you have one crappy list of plastic paper with either the basic controls or some “coupon” for extra credits valid only in some crap store. And we don’t even have to start about the part how you don’t even have the game on the disc most of the time.
But yes, I recommend Tunic to anyone who wants to catch this (and generally that “good ol’ times” vibe of gaming) feeling. It’s a lovely game and it has that positively tougher difficulty and the need to think about some stuff if you wanna solve all the secrets. Something which not many games do these days (obviously you have FromSoft games and indies but yea).
But this also has a “downside” IMHO. I will be frank, I feel stupid as heck when I think about, say, some of the endings for Sekiro or even stuff in Tunic. I am quite sure I’d be unable to solve most of the stuff by myself. Maybe my brain also got mushed, I dunno. I wonder if I am stupid or if these puzzles are now being made with internet/meta gaming in mind? But I’d rather prefer to not meta game but sometimes I feel almost “forced” (not really as usually this stuff only concerns optional content). I dunno. Anyway, rant over. If anyone wants this kinda vibe gaming used to provide, definitely try Tunic!
Speaking about the back of the case. Remember Metal Gear Solid? Yea, I 'memba.
I will check out Tunic, once I’m done with one or two more games that I have currently installed, but on your hypothesis of games being made with internet knowledge in mind or them just generally being harder: Most games today are (or can be at least) much more complex in their systems than previous generations. Take X4 Foundations for example. It has a properly living economy. As far as I know, no ship and weapon just get spawned in without someone having mined and processed the ressources to do so. The game keeps track of thousands of ships over a volume of tens of thousands kilometers. And since you can mix and match every ship with a huge amount of equipment options, you can’t just point at a single thing and say “If I do this, I win.” But it also has some obscure systems, I can’t deny. For example that you can use EMP bombs to steal building blueprints, so you don’t have to buy them.
So while some games absolutely are made with the intent that only those who use the combined knowledge of the internet have a chance at experiencing every secret (looking at you, Five Nights At Freddy’s), most games are just harder due to the tech that makes it possible to do a certain thing in the first place.
On the other hand, I remember Morrowind being mentally difficult in some respects because there are no quest markers and very little other help aside from what you figure out on your own and what gets written in the in-game journal.
You are quite right that there are indeed two variants of difficulty. I agree that one evolved with what is technically possible as you describe and yea, then there is that mental difficulty you mentioned about Morrowind.
I more or less basically gave up on these extremely complex games (mechanics and systems wise) because they (IMHO obviously) push you into spending too much time to do meta-research and studying. And I just don’t wanna spend more time outside of the game than I do in game + this also starts to feel like “a job” to some degree. Or obviously you can be intelligent and very into it and perhaps realize how these mechanics work yourself but as you mention - some games are just extremely complex IMHO (usually these are strategic games but also others like competitive games, etc.) and the collective knowledge of the internet is in my opinion taken into account while designing these systems.
But yea, then there is that mental difficulty. I’d say Tunic falls into this category. And there are many games like these even among modern AAA titles sometimes (not in that “full scope” like say the mentioned Morrowind). But I wonder if there are people who came to these conclusion by themselves. I mean obviously these things got solved but how? Was it a person by themself or was it a collaborative effort on a site/chat channel or w/e?
Because I am thinking about this a lot and unless I am lying to myself, when I was a kid, I almost 100% FF9 (the only thing I didn’t find/do looking back now is that I never did a speedrun (this concept was absolutely unimaginable to me until relatively recently even) so I didn’t get Excalibur II and I haven’t beaten Ozma - but I found it). And I wonder if that was just me spending a lot of time on the game, enjoying it and thinking about it and piecing stuff together eventually and now I am perhaps “unable” because my brain starts to react with “OMG this is impossible to do alone” quite fast. Or did also these mental difficulties ramp up over time? I am not sure to what end it’d serve but yea.
I mainly wonder if these “super secrets” were always meant to be solved collectively somehow or is it more of a modern take because internet/meta gaming or am I just intellectually lazy/dumb these days? For example let’s consider that Excalibur II in FF9. The only hint a “normal player” has is that a card of it exists in Tetra Master but then you had to speed run the game (12 hours to the very last dungeon) and there you had to look around for it. Was it found accidentally? Or did someone data mine then? Or did some devs talk about it with friends and it spread? And same goes for basically any and all of these “super secrets”.
My main point I guess is that I’d love to spend time with a game I love and try to find these things myself but I am quite unsure whether it’s even possible for some of this stuff.
Mhmm, I understand what you’re saying. One factor that came to my mind just now (sitting in the waiting room for my doctor lol) is that, as a kid, I didn’t have that sensory-overload level of games I could be playing. At first, my family had a PS1 with Spyro, Tenchu, Dead or Alive and Tekken on it. I think that was it. Or at least those were the only ones I can remember off the top of my head. For a couple years I only was able to play these four games (it was a modified console, so it could only play burned discs, on top of it). That together with the fact that, as a child, I didn’t need to concern myself with anything mentally super taxing while playing, probably resulted in me just devoting enough time into the games to find secrets/routes I would run past now. Maybe it’s similar for you?
Yup, thinking back on it I think you nailed it. Especially that part about being more “free to just enjoy things”. I mean it usually almost goes without saying but I wish I could at least somehow do it - enjoy things I want to enjoy (not just games) without having any thoughts in the back of the back of my mind which are bogging me down. I am quite sure you are correct on this part.
And the first part is quite true as well, I have x amount of games on my two PlayStations, y amount of games on GOG and z amount of games on Steam. Similar to your experience, back when I was playing FF9 I remember I only had 3-4 games in total, too. FF9, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo and Crash 2. So you are also quite right on this point. Right now even when I am playing a game, I am not fully concentrated on it because of that “mental tax of life” + I am always thinking about my catalogue of games I wanna play and even of games I should get and try, etc.
So yes, perhaps I need to learn to relax :) Three games are coming this year which I am extra excited about - Baldur’s Gate 3, Hollow Knight 2 (hopefully!) and Hades 2. I will do my best to tackle just one at the time without any of these pressures and we’ll see how it goes. And even if I cannot really devote as much time to playing as I could back then, I will just take longer. Who says I need to finish a game in any amount of time?
Thanks for “tiny therapy”, Crotaro! :) Maybe I’ll update you here later this year about this. Hopefully, my mind won’t be as weak as it was when I played Sekiro and Hollow Knight - after first trouble of getting something, I’ve tried once or twice to get it and then - immediately ran to internet. I will try to avoid this with these 3 games (and hopefully others).
P.S. I am now replaying FF9 on emulator and I remembered so many things even after 20 years :) so “technically” it’s not this “gameplay challenge” it was back then but still having an amazing time with it because now I am picking up things in story and dialogue that went over my 12 year old head.
Tunic gave me that feeling
Yea, what Tunic did was something that was not quite standard in the “days of yore” IMHO, but at least it was being done here and there. Now you open a case and you have one crappy list of plastic paper with either the basic controls or some “coupon” for extra credits valid only in some crap store. And we don’t even have to start about the part how you don’t even have the game on the disc most of the time.
But yes, I recommend Tunic to anyone who wants to catch this (and generally that “good ol’ times” vibe of gaming) feeling. It’s a lovely game and it has that positively tougher difficulty and the need to think about some stuff if you wanna solve all the secrets. Something which not many games do these days (obviously you have FromSoft games and indies but yea).
But this also has a “downside” IMHO. I will be frank, I feel stupid as heck when I think about, say, some of the endings for Sekiro or even stuff in Tunic. I am quite sure I’d be unable to solve most of the stuff by myself. Maybe my brain also got mushed, I dunno. I wonder if I am stupid or if these puzzles are now being made with internet/meta gaming in mind? But I’d rather prefer to not meta game but sometimes I feel almost “forced” (not really as usually this stuff only concerns optional content). I dunno. Anyway, rant over. If anyone wants this kinda vibe gaming used to provide, definitely try Tunic!
Speaking about the back of the case. Remember Metal Gear Solid? Yea, I 'memba.
I will check out Tunic, once I’m done with one or two more games that I have currently installed, but on your hypothesis of games being made with internet knowledge in mind or them just generally being harder: Most games today are (or can be at least) much more complex in their systems than previous generations. Take X4 Foundations for example. It has a properly living economy. As far as I know, no ship and weapon just get spawned in without someone having mined and processed the ressources to do so. The game keeps track of thousands of ships over a volume of tens of thousands kilometers. And since you can mix and match every ship with a huge amount of equipment options, you can’t just point at a single thing and say “If I do this, I win.” But it also has some obscure systems, I can’t deny. For example that you can use EMP bombs to steal building blueprints, so you don’t have to buy them.
So while some games absolutely are made with the intent that only those who use the combined knowledge of the internet have a chance at experiencing every secret (looking at you, Five Nights At Freddy’s), most games are just harder due to the tech that makes it possible to do a certain thing in the first place.
On the other hand, I remember Morrowind being mentally difficult in some respects because there are no quest markers and very little other help aside from what you figure out on your own and what gets written in the in-game journal.
You are quite right that there are indeed two variants of difficulty. I agree that one evolved with what is technically possible as you describe and yea, then there is that mental difficulty you mentioned about Morrowind.
I more or less basically gave up on these extremely complex games (mechanics and systems wise) because they (IMHO obviously) push you into spending too much time to do meta-research and studying. And I just don’t wanna spend more time outside of the game than I do in game + this also starts to feel like “a job” to some degree. Or obviously you can be intelligent and very into it and perhaps realize how these mechanics work yourself but as you mention - some games are just extremely complex IMHO (usually these are strategic games but also others like competitive games, etc.) and the collective knowledge of the internet is in my opinion taken into account while designing these systems.
But yea, then there is that mental difficulty. I’d say Tunic falls into this category. And there are many games like these even among modern AAA titles sometimes (not in that “full scope” like say the mentioned Morrowind). But I wonder if there are people who came to these conclusion by themselves. I mean obviously these things got solved but how? Was it a person by themself or was it a collaborative effort on a site/chat channel or w/e?
Because I am thinking about this a lot and unless I am lying to myself, when I was a kid, I almost 100% FF9 (the only thing I didn’t find/do looking back now is that I never did a speedrun (this concept was absolutely unimaginable to me until relatively recently even) so I didn’t get Excalibur II and I haven’t beaten Ozma - but I found it). And I wonder if that was just me spending a lot of time on the game, enjoying it and thinking about it and piecing stuff together eventually and now I am perhaps “unable” because my brain starts to react with “OMG this is impossible to do alone” quite fast. Or did also these mental difficulties ramp up over time? I am not sure to what end it’d serve but yea.
I mainly wonder if these “super secrets” were always meant to be solved collectively somehow or is it more of a modern take because internet/meta gaming or am I just intellectually lazy/dumb these days? For example let’s consider that Excalibur II in FF9. The only hint a “normal player” has is that a card of it exists in Tetra Master but then you had to speed run the game (12 hours to the very last dungeon) and there you had to look around for it. Was it found accidentally? Or did someone data mine then? Or did some devs talk about it with friends and it spread? And same goes for basically any and all of these “super secrets”.
My main point I guess is that I’d love to spend time with a game I love and try to find these things myself but I am quite unsure whether it’s even possible for some of this stuff.
Mhmm, I understand what you’re saying. One factor that came to my mind just now (sitting in the waiting room for my doctor lol) is that, as a kid, I didn’t have that sensory-overload level of games I could be playing. At first, my family had a PS1 with Spyro, Tenchu, Dead or Alive and Tekken on it. I think that was it. Or at least those were the only ones I can remember off the top of my head. For a couple years I only was able to play these four games (it was a modified console, so it could only play burned discs, on top of it). That together with the fact that, as a child, I didn’t need to concern myself with anything mentally super taxing while playing, probably resulted in me just devoting enough time into the games to find secrets/routes I would run past now. Maybe it’s similar for you?
Yup, thinking back on it I think you nailed it. Especially that part about being more “free to just enjoy things”. I mean it usually almost goes without saying but I wish I could at least somehow do it - enjoy things I want to enjoy (not just games) without having any thoughts in the back of the back of my mind which are bogging me down. I am quite sure you are correct on this part. And the first part is quite true as well, I have x amount of games on my two PlayStations, y amount of games on GOG and z amount of games on Steam. Similar to your experience, back when I was playing FF9 I remember I only had 3-4 games in total, too. FF9, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo and Crash 2. So you are also quite right on this point. Right now even when I am playing a game, I am not fully concentrated on it because of that “mental tax of life” + I am always thinking about my catalogue of games I wanna play and even of games I should get and try, etc. So yes, perhaps I need to learn to relax :) Three games are coming this year which I am extra excited about - Baldur’s Gate 3, Hollow Knight 2 (hopefully!) and Hades 2. I will do my best to tackle just one at the time without any of these pressures and we’ll see how it goes. And even if I cannot really devote as much time to playing as I could back then, I will just take longer. Who says I need to finish a game in any amount of time? Thanks for “tiny therapy”, Crotaro! :) Maybe I’ll update you here later this year about this. Hopefully, my mind won’t be as weak as it was when I played Sekiro and Hollow Knight - after first trouble of getting something, I’ve tried once or twice to get it and then - immediately ran to internet. I will try to avoid this with these 3 games (and hopefully others).
P.S. I am now replaying FF9 on emulator and I remembered so many things even after 20 years :) so “technically” it’s not this “gameplay challenge” it was back then but still having an amazing time with it because now I am picking up things in story and dialogue that went over my 12 year old head.