Regardless of if it’s practical to live that way in daily life, the world seems pretty determined. Everything happens because a vast amount of interactions between infinite factors causes it to. You can’t really say you choose between things as many influences have been taken in by you and many things have affected your psychological state. Has everything been practically decided by the big bang? Now, this is not to say we can know everything or predict the future, but we know what’s likely. Socialism or extinction may be inevitable, but we don’t know yet. Socialism can only happen if people keep fighting, regardless. People will be convinced or principled or not. Science seems to agree with this, and only few, like the wrong Sartre would propose we have ultimate free will. So are there any arguments against determinism? I know there is a saying that you’re freer when you recognize how your freedom is restricted, and that recognition may make your actions better, but isn’t there ultimately no freedom?

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    Other commenters here have given some great answers. The answer is a pretty resounding: No. There is nothing to indicate that “free will” exists, and in fact it is not clear how such a thing even could exist in a universe which operates according to a set of physical laws.

    That being said, this is really a moot academic point. For all practical intents and purposes we have no choice but to live our lives and organize our societies as though we had free will. Socially speaking this is a necessary pretense, otherwise nothing would get done.

    • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.mlOPM
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      Exactly, in recognizing determinism one can resign themselves to the supposed inevitable - that would be stupid, or one could go on living as if they had free will even though it’s probably determined or at least random. Remember that even if it is determined your determined actions still matter. Being convinced whether or not you have free will may be out of your control, but the following actions will still affect the world.

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    My take is simple.

    We do not live in a vacuum, our actions will always be conditioned by our current and past material conditions. However, contradictions are inherent in nature and there lies our free will, in our constant struggle for development.

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      That’s not really an argument for free will. In a dialectical determinist view, internal contradictions drive everything and causes things to affect other things and so on.

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        Id like to add Rosa quote to this “Before a revolution happens, it is perceived as impossible; after it happens, it is seen as having been inevitable.”.

        The thing with determinism is that it views things as inevitable outcomes AFTER they happen, so it is impossible to argue against it. The process of struggling to resolve contradictions is what embodies free will in my opinion.

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          Is ice freely struggling with air with the possibility of cooling it or being melted? Where would you find a material source for free will. Maybe pure chance is possible, but that doesn’t imply choice.

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            Lol i think it goes without saying that free will is for sentient beings.

            Edit: also would repeat that we do not live in a vacuum, nature is connected and determined. Other beings free will can overcome yours and likewise.

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              Then where does sentience come from? I don’t expect you to be able to answer this obviously, but I don’t see why sentience isn’t just an incredibly complex material reaction that came into existence in extreme absurdity and improbability.

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                sentience is a highly developed stage of matter. millions of years of evolution led to sentience, or in other words millions of years of struggle.

                • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.mlOPM
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                  yeah, but what is it? how does it have free will? isn’t it just regular matter subject to conditions, not able to make decisions.

  • loathesome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
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    I gravitate towards determinism but believe that the perfect knowledge required to prove determinism is impossible therefore it’s pointless to ponder over free will

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    Every argument for free will comes down to insisting it must exist because the alternative makes people feel bad.

    • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.mlOPM
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      In a way determinism is comforting because things aren’t your fault. However, if that thought leads someone to inaction it can be harmful.

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    This isn’t necessarily free-will, but it’s an interesting factor. It’s been observed that in some tissue development, genes essentially are shuffled like a deck of cards. At first, this seemed to happen in crops like corn. But now, we know that this also happens as brain tissues are forming. So as your brain formed, your body shuffled the deck of your genes to acieve a unique structure. Perhaps not free will, but this is strong evidence of highly nondeterministic processes influencing behavior.

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      Randomness is part of determinism. Just because they were shuffled doesn’t mean each was equally likely. By uncontrollable factors a specific variation was landed on. An interesting fact, though.

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        IIRC our DNA operates on such a small scale that quantum uncertainty comes in to play. There’s no hidden variables that predetermine the order and density and dispersion of chemicals and chemical reactions. Instead there can only be a set of probabilities as to how DNA can be reshuffled.

        That’s not free will, though, just indeterminism.

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            No? It’s literally undetermined, as in, the previous conditions of the system do not determine the outcomes and only give a range of probabilities.

            Indeterminism is not determinism by definition.

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      Based on the data listed above, it can be concluded that the observed phenomenon of intercellular neuronal interconnection using Arc has developed in evolution as a reflection of the adaptive value of the TE transcript transfer phenomenon between postmitotic cells. It is possible that when neurons exchange virus-like mRNA particles between neurons, the ability of TEs to be integrated in a site-specific manner (Sultana et al., 2017) with a change in the expression of neuron-specific genes is used to form long-term memory. As a result, the functioning of neurons and the storage of information in the brain change (Bachiller et al., 2017). from here

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    There’s one practical scientific argument against free will. And that is that: that:

    1. Given the base of all decision-making, and even thoughts, in humans is on chemical reactions in the brain.

    2. The chemical reactions we are referring to affect neurons firing. Neurons firing is actually how the brain works.

    3. The action potential is what determines whether or not a neuron will fire. The action potential is based on a ton of teeny tiny interactions at the chemical level.

    4. Those teeny tiny chemical reactions are quantum.

    5. Quantum things are inherently unpredictable. No, I do not mean they are difficult to predict. I mean, even with perfect knowledge, they are literally unpredictable.

    6. Even with perfect knowledge, you will not understand entirely if someone is going to have particular neurons firing, and they can have many downstream effects because there are billions of neurons, and sometimes entire thoughts are caused by only only thousands of them, and literally that would be unpredictable.

    Okay, but here’s some caveats.

    A. Just because something is unpredictable does that mean you have free will. In fact, in theory, if it’s completely unpredictable, even if you have perfect knowledge, then that actually means you don’t have free will and that your actions are just random. So I wouldn’t call that better.

    B. Anybody who claims they understand quantum mechanics is lying. Even here I’m kind of just using it as a philosophical tool because I have no idea if you can actually predict anything in quantum mechanics. I just know that the quantum mechanics scientists basically say that you can’t.

    Back in my liberal, scientific, neurological, philosophical days. This is basically the end of the conversation I made it to in terms of free will. I haven’t really thought about it much since then. Food for thought if you are interested in thinking about it further.

    • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
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      The thing I think you’re missing with the quantum angle is that its unknowable currently but that doesnt mean its unknowable, we might get to a point where that level of computation is possible for us to work out. I think the best way to put it is ‘no current models can predict this but thats not to say a model couldnt feasibly scale up large enough to work it out’; its something that might be a frontier we can work out if quantum computers ever become a feasable thing to apply to this.

      Thats not to say it will disprove free will, it might very well become a ‘shit we need a post-quantum quantum computer for this’

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        I agree with you, it is a principle of materialism that the world and its laws are knowable, we constantly prove this concept by scientific advancements.

        Certain mysteries of nature may seem impossible to understand currently, but in 1000 years they may already be solved

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        Everything is divisible into infinitely smaller parts, so yeah there probably will always be more to know no matter how much you know.

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          It starts to beg the question that if everything is computable with a big enough theortical computer pointed at a paradigm that exists, but is either found or not found given the unknown, doesnt that mean free will is moot?

          Untill we find the unparadagimable matter its still up for debate.

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            I still don’t see an argument for free will here. Either way it means its random or predictable, not free. The only way free will could exist is if there was some sort of spirit beyond matter.

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          Bell’s theorem imposes that a hidden variable theory that makes the spontaneity of quantum measurement unspontaneous is only possible if it is nonlocal.

          Nonlocality means two things can be correlated and their corresponding nature be known simultaneously at once due to this correlation. Once you know one, you know the other, without any relaying of information between them.

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        This is why it’s hard to talk about any scientific facts, even when surrounding a philosophical argument. Yes, maybe we could find a way eventually, but we need that evidence first, and as of right now, there’s evidence to show that we actually can’t have perfect knowledge.

        But yeah, “anything could change” is like, always there, so, sure.

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        Yeah, as I just responded to someone else, this is the weird intersection between science and philosophy. If I had perfect knowledge about the universe, but I can’t predict this quantum interaction, then do I have enough knowledge to predict your actions? How much room do I have before this interaction becomes “well, i can predict with statistical chance, and that is good enough”.

        BTW, I wasn’t throwing up my hands with "we can’t predict quantum, so it’s all moot’. Like, yeah, I now there’s statistics around it, I know more than I let on in that comment, I wasn’t here to lecture about quantum mechanics, and as I stated, the ones that do state that this is not fully known science.

        Like, literally we don’t know if we have free will. That’s why this is a philosophical argument. This is just one piece.

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    Don’t think the free will v no free will dualism is the best way to look at the beast/phrase it, its something else entirely that uses these two aspects that seem like polar poles but are heavily overlapping, what some may easily call free will in some scenarios to being heavily shaded by conditions/environmental factors in others. I think of it as Marx’s “man makes history, not under conditions of his choosing” meets modern psychneurosci.

    Anyway, the real question here feels like ‘what is freedom’, which would be another good topic.

  • lckdscl [they/them]@whiskers.bim.boats
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    To preface, I have no logical or syllogistic arguments against determinism. Many arguments are sophistic or simply ahistorical and undialectical.

    Also, I take it that you’re assuming “free-will = indeterminism” and “no free-will = determinism”? I’ll roll with this for now.

    Hard (Laplacian) determinism presupposes that you can fully predict the future once you know all the initial conditions. This means all events must necessarily have one-to-one connections between their cause and effect, granted we know the initial conditions and the functions to evolve it. Thus, “knowing what’s likely” is, in my opinion, not convincing enough to believe in metaphysical determinism.

    Notice the connection between knowledge and reality here:

    The universe could be deterministic for all we know, but we cannot know all the initial conditions to evolve it deterministically for ourselves. Here, if we subscribe to some kind of technical limits to our knowledge acquisition, then we have “seemingly” random or stochastic processes, but governed by completely deterministic processes. Our physical theories have mathematical equations we can solve to connect cause and effects. Sounds too good and simple to be real? From the text I linked above:

    Nature, however, is much more clever than this. Towards the end of the 1800’s, mathematicians and scientists began encountering some very difficult equations to solve — some in fact were completely unsolvable. A particularly troublesome set of mathematical equations were non-linear differential equations. Much in the same vein, there existed the horribly difficult and outstanding problem of three mutually gravitationally attracted bodies — the so called “three-body problem” (or its generalization to “n-bodies”).

    At first, problems such as these were cast-off as special cases and largely ignored. It would turn out that these so-called “special cases” would bring the birth of a new way of thinking. When these equations were finally studied in detail a fundamental change, which would ultimately overthrow the ideas of determinism, began to occur in mathematics and science. Inklings of the science that would be come to be known as “chaos” began to appear.

    So are our theories just incomplete? That there is a deterministic fabric but we are not clever enough to figure it out? If we can’t figure that out then for all we know we do recognize a psychological free-will. One might retort that this free-will is an “illusion” (i.e. not real; doesn’t exist in a metaphysical sense). I don’t like this because I take phenomenology/experience to be first class, not mathematical equations, the latter is chauvinistic and reductive. The content of people’s thoughts and decisions are meaningful to them. One’s action could be interpreted by outsiders as both determined and completely unpredictable, depending on who you ask. If you psychoanalyze someone to “get down to the bottom” of their desires to explain how they are currently, then it functions as therapy, not necessarily something logically right or wrong.

    If you say to your coworkers and fellow working class people that their lives are ultimately governed by mathematics and physics, then you either depress a potential comrade from future actions or set the ball rolling for their revolutionary escape (through negating what you’ve just said).

    Either way, free-will in the sense of phenomenology versus free-will in the sense of indeterminism are really separate concepts in my eyes.

    But then, by accepting the former free-will and being on the fence about the latter free-will, am I conceding that nature-in-itself is truly deterministic and that we’re too dumb to figure it out?

    To have a nature-in-itself being deterministic while everyone believes they have free-will, you might subscribe to the existence of a Kantian unknowable thing-in-itself. This, I presume, refers to the ultimate in what you mean by “ultimately no freedom”. In other words, if this nature-in-itself is actually governed by deterministic principles, then we ultimately have no free-will.

    But why do we have this assumption of determinism (and scientific reductionism; if we believe from the Big Bang, everything was determined)? Just because our 19th century mathematics and mechanistic physics worked out well then? Why is this determinism a fallback epistemological assumption? Are we just influenced by the way mathematical and physical sciences are taught in schools? That we can know these bits of proofs and derivations once we grasp these abstractions of nature taught by our teachers?

    On the other hand, the universe might be infinitely complex and constantly changing. Let’s take this assumption à la Engels: The ebbs and flows of our scientific development is a dialectical grapple with this dialectical nature. The dialetheistic structure of {abstraction}, {negation}, {concrete; production of new knowledge} is not a static method, but manifests itself in how we might choose to best move forward and develop new ways to understand the world.

    This means not projecting our assumptions and dogma. Events that have no one-to-one connections between their cause and effect, but rather one-to-many, or many-to-many, are still caused, but they are indeterministic. Quantum physics can be interpreted to be completely indeterministic, but still caused. This is acceptable if one accepts the infinite nature of the universe that allows itself to be captured and abstracted by humans (inb4 occam’s razor). We are to understand it at some certain levels and parts, but not the whole all at once. If we understand this, the “necessity” of one-to-one cause and effect seems like a dogmatic belief that only function to hinder further development. It can be a limiting case of certain physical theories (classical physics), but that is where it ends.

    • lckdscl [they/them]@whiskers.bim.boats
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      From David Bohm in Chance and Causality

      Now, as we shall see in this chapter and in other parts of the book, the mechanistic philosophy has taken many specific forms throughout the development of science. The most essential aspects of this philosophy seem to the author, however, to be its assumption that the great diversity of things that appear in all of our experience, every day as well as scientific, can all be reduced completely and perfectly to nothing more than consequences of the operation of an absolute and final set of purely quantitative laws determining the behaviour of a few kinds of basic entities or variables. (p. 37)

      But we do not assume, as is generally done in a mechanistic philosophy, that the whole of nature can eventually be treated completely perfectly and unconditionally in terms of just one of these sides, so that the other will be seen to be inessential, a mere shadow, that makes no fundamental contribution to our representation of nature as a whole. (p. 143)

      There’s plenty of space to reinterpret free-will (or concretized moments of free-will recognized or experienced by humans, if you’d like) into this representation of nature as wholly infinite and constantly developing.

      If you scrap the indeterminism = free-will assumption, you can interpret this way:

      • determinism and no free-will.
      • indeterminism but genes + environment/structure govern everything, so free-will illusion.
      • indeterminism and genes + environment/structure impact culture and cultural learning, but meaning and content delivered through understanding and cognition is still an experience and hence uniquely free to interpret and reinterpret itself, leaving room for some freedom of the will.
      • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.mlOPM
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        i agree with the last one except it seems more like an observed process in the mind rather than something chosen.

    • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.mlOPM
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      I agree with most of this. My view is that the universe is knowable, but not to a great extent as we are finite beings and everything is constantly changing and affecting other things. Thus, I don’t think we should live as if the universe is simple and easily understood as in the hard (vulgar materialist) determinist view. As someone who hasn’t read from the source, I think Spinoza’s view of god and Jenner’s view of nature (as described in Half Earth Socialism) are appealing.

      On the topic of thoughts, It seems like the mind is a process that propels itself with influence from many things. It is largely out of one’s (even subjective) control if control exists. The self and control are illusions somehow brought about by matter. I think this is about the buddhist view, if a bit more materialist. Just think about it, do you decide things or are you influenced by uncontrolled and contradictory desires? When you move do you decide those movements or is it mostly automatic? when you think are you actually directing your thoughts or do they simply arise spontaneously?

      • lckdscl [they/them]@whiskers.bim.boats
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        I agree. While we are finite individually, we can acknowledge the transgenerational flow of ideas and thus treat our knowledge-making enterprises as also constantly developing, so what is knowable can flexibly grow. For me there is little purpose in conjuring up a demon with perfect knowledge or complete systems of knowledge as that is very rigid and undialectical.

        The following is rambling so feel free to ignore if it doesn’t cohere, I need to do more thinking and reading about these related ideas to build up my understanding further.

        spoiler

        As for the second point, I take my experience and train of thought to be real. But it is simultaneously an “illusion” as what is left of my identity and decisions are a result of the sum of lived experience and interactions.

        I think I do subscribe to an emergent mental faculty based upon material relations and contexts but this only restrict its form and does not take away its meaning at the emergence level.

        Thermodynamics being macro level explanations for lower level statisical mechanics does not render the former meaningless. Its language game and concepts function at its own level, not out of convention but out of an epistemological need as we turn our attention from well-understood equilibrium ideal regimes to less well-understood real life nonequilibrium regimes.

        Similarly, the free-will concept might have material grounds but its emergence level is what is experienced, of life events unfolding where one is the subject.

        Once I grasp the self, “I”, it ceases to be homogenous and monolothic, but rather becoming a mental explosion of colours and memories and constant reflections of these things. Everything in my past, I can reinterpret (relevant as someone who lived through traumatic events), and this is consciously done, as far it comes to me through active recollection to reframe my trauma and reclaim my youth.

        Hence, I reinterpet the freedom of my will not as a moment of “choice”. Life is not merely a series of choices for me personally, but a series of events interpreted and reinterpreted as actions and beliefs immersed in the context at the time. The context influenced me as much as I have interpreted the context to be as such. I am the subject understanding and unveiling my will through my past events as the object of analysis, with full “objective” context included. The concept of a choice as part of decision-making fades away.

        Rather I act at any moment with some degree of awareness and through later reflection and metareflection interpret rational “will” from it. I cringe at weird things I did, but at those moments they were fully real and consciously intended. Through these reflections come negations of things I did, but which I don’t want to do no longer. Thus, I elevate my understanding and have developed as a person.

        That’s where you might have said it’s more of an observed process, rather than a conscious choice, made there and then. In this respect, I do admit that’s how I have decided to interpret free-will, which is more empowering than a religious or scientific interpretation. I don’t already believe in one-to-one causation in society, so my passage through time being caused by this or that is trivial as nothing I do exists in a vacuum. And I am simultaneously aware of my influences and also that I can be influenced by things I might not grasp through a deeper reinterpretation until many moments (or years) later. The mind at any moment in time is dragged by the flow of time and the material forces pressuring it to keep going, forcing it to move along. Certain things take a long time to be understood well. For this reason, I reject the strong notion of free-will that needs conscious choice at every minor crossroad in life, however these words and definitions might look like in vacuo.

        Deconstructing this strong notion free-will will show that it is not a closed concept, ready to be embraced or desired: we need to understand personal ability (this goes hand in hand with philosophy of illness), personal identity, personal responsibility, etc. Come up with rigid, static frameworks for each of the above and you’ve lost the sense of my experience as a human who felt I have steered my life in certain ways, but also have allowed myself to be steered in other ways.

        My rambling is not intended for self-validation that I somehow possess a made up free-will; in a revolutionary context I need to want to constantly look after my actions and reinterpret it so that my desire for a better world is not in full cognitive dissonance with my own current state of affairs. It makes sense in my head to want to navigate life as a subject wanting to project myself forward through interpretation of possibilities (either after or before said action) and as an object of nature; as the totalities of things around me and as a physical embodiment in sociocultural contexts. I find there is a balance to be achieved, or made aware of.

  • Che's Motorcycle@lemmygrad.ml
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    I’m leaning towards the idea that, from a Marxist perspective, the question “do we as individuals have free will” involves a category mistake. Instead, as Marxists, we want to ask, “how have various relations of production impacted human freedom?” The latter is a question we can easily answer by understanding the relations between workers and capitalists, peasants and lords, etc.

    Moreover, just as we use dialectics to understand history and society, we can and should use it to understand nature. What is evolution but the relational process of selecting the individuals (and species!) most adapted to their environment? Or of their impacts on environments that can cause the environment itself to change?

    Two examples. Capitalist-induced climate change is an obvious case of a species altering their environment in profound ways. Likewise, some of the earliest organisms on earth, which produced oxygen, created the conditions for the atmosphere as we know it.

    Tl;dr - relations are not deterministic, especially not at the level of ecology or society.

    Does something worth calling free will “emerge” out of this fact? I think so, at least.

    • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.mlOPM
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      I agree to a certain extent. It’s definitely not the most important question, but as materialists we at least have a basis for discussing it. I think in any society freedom doesn’t really exist. Freedom is meaningless because we are subject to conditions and roles and biology. Freedom suggests a Cartesian dualism. A spirit separate from the body.

      Tl;dr - relations are not deterministic, especially not at the level of ecology or society.

      I think you are substituting deterministic for simple or mechanical here.

      Likewise, some of the earliest organisms on earth, which produced oxygen, created the conditions for the atmosphere as we know it.

      Very true, this points to the absurd and unlikely nature of our existence. Everything had to go “right” up to this point. That does not contradict determinism.

      Does something worth calling free will “emerge” out of this fact? I think so, at least.

      I’ll look into it.

      Edit: socialism limits “freedom” to accumulate, be antisocial, or be poor, but promotes a default of flourishing.

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    the most decent argument i have heard is that despite the fact that u are the result of some chemicals and stuff in ur brain and the past events u have expirenced and therefore if “god does not play dice” (which like it seems it does and Einstein was wrong cuz some things seem random) then despite the fact that ur decisions and actions are deterministic they are still ur decisions and actions u are still doing what u want to do and deciding what u want, so despite the fact that some theoretical being with perfect knowledge about everything could predict ur actions they would still be ur actions and ur decisions and that technically free will.

    • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.mlOPM
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      That would be a stretch. If you want things based on outside forces are you “free” to choose based on those desires?

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        Is it? maybe but given the assumption that the universe is deterministic (which u seem to be making) it is basically the only decent argument.

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    5 months ago

    Btw, I made this post partially because a while ago I wanted to look into Deism. Deists claim they are convinced of god by rational argument. What “rational arguments” did I find? “There’s no way evolution is real” and “where else does our free will come from” was all I found. Stupid.

    • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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      5 months ago

      Rationality and reason are overrated, I think. They have their place but not on their own. People like Richard Dawkins iirc make appeals to rationality and reason and their work can still be riddled with problems. It seems that everyone since the enlightenment calls themselves rational. It’s a la mode. They seem to sometimes mean that there’s a rationale. But there’s one of those for everything if you think about it hard enough.

      • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.mlOPM
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        5 months ago

        Anything can be “rationally proven” given certain premises/assumptions. Our premises are closer to reality than the idealists.

        Edit: Didn’t Descartes “prove” god exists by asking how the idea could exist in so many people’s head’s without it being so? Also, where do souls come from then?