True, while a lot of it is clearly for business purposes. I may have been flippant stating their blue water navy stuff, that absolutely won’t sell, is just marketing material. In truth, their blue water Navy moves which only began like 10 years ago or so is in fairness quite impressive. They’ve created large destroyers that the US is saying is on par with Ageis and aircraft carriers that have shown similar sortie rates to UK’s carriers. If it really was just for show as I’m trying to say, it would have probably been more like Russian equipment. What with their sole aircraft carrier constantly catching fire and their stealth fighter jet that they’re scared to put into the front line. The fact that China can demonstrate the equipment working on a fairly consistent basis in different weather conditions should tell me they’re much more serious about all this than I give them credit for.

That said, this shift is too new to know what they’re really thinking. Plus, they absolutely have been parading around the Type 55 to future prospective buyers of their equipment. Yet there’s also clearly some movement towards actually being able to use this stuff. For example about 4 years ago, India showed off to the world that they could operate both of their aircraft carriers simultaneously. Something that at the time at least China was unable to do. However, last month they sailed all three of their carriers out simultaneously. Clearly this is an attempted signal that we do have enough trained officers and we’re not just building equipment without training soldiers.

China’s just done the this stuff is for sales for so long it’s honestly hard for me to see it any other way. On top of them actually doing the training starting so recently that it’s hard for me to say this is a permanent shift and not just a way to throw off the comments from India mocking their training.

All in all, this IMO is why China was befriending Russia to begin with. China has powerful technology, but ironically they don’t have the bodies to put behind them. The one child policy has basically made every parent in China refuse to let their kids become soldiers. Russia on the other hand seemed to have a limitless supply of bodies to throw at a problem as they’re doing in Ukraine. With China’s best friends constantly facing off with terrorists, Pakistan, Myanmar, Saudi Arabi, UAE, Egypt and many more I think it made perfect sense China wanted access to Wagner to deal with this. Then, uh… Well Russia PROVED they have the bodies to throw in the grinder because they threw the bodies into the grinder.

You’re smart, I like you. What your saying is absolutely correct which is exactly why China by and large doesn’t build the large sea crafts and instead focuses on littoral patrol ships. Even the US had noticed it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/11/05/yes-china-has-more-warships-than-the-usa-thats-because-chinese-ships-are-small/

The US states it’s because the Chinese navy is focused on power at home and not power projection. I say it’s for sales purposes.

Now, China also makes the large super ships. But those are made in small numbers. They have their type 55 destroyer that has been compared to the Agies which I think there are 8 and their 3 aircraft carriers. But those ships are basically marketing brochures. They catch the attention of the media and not much else. These you hear talked about all the time, and China sails them everywhere for photo ops.

I know it’s weird, but it actually is easier to think of China as a corporation that’s gone off the rails rather than a country.

<CRY> You are absolutely right. I cannot rightfully call myself center-right anymore. The right has literally jumped off a cliff and I’m stuck here shaking my fists in anger at the sky. I probably am close to neo-lib. I would have used to call myself libertarian but whoo boy that went sideways. It’s a sad reality for me. Maybe that’s why I’m so upset about it all.

So here’s a surprising thing about China’s Navy. Besides small arms, naval ships are what China sells the most. There are a lot of weird political reasons for this, for example fighter jets and tanks are almost exclusively sold to close allies and allies just isn’t China’s thing. Just look what happened to Egypt’s purchases of SU-35s as they got hit by CAATSA. So China decided to focus on a niche to get the word out that they’re selling high end military equipment, not just small arms. Something that would go under the radar of many super powers (read USA) and would still be able to show off high end equipment. Secondly, you have to remember who China’s buyers are. SE Asia is mostly island nations, so they don’t go for the more conventional equipment that you’re thinking of. They’re islands, so they’re more likely to buy maritime equipment rather than ground assault equipment that you would see pretty much everywhere else on the planet.

I mean just recently you have Thailand and Cambodia both buying Chinese Naval warships. Here’s a super fun one, Malaysia is one of their customers. A country they’re having a spat with over the SCS. So you have Malaysia buying Chinese warships to protect Malaysia from China.

https://www.voanews.com/a/malaysia-buying-chinese-ships-to-protect-waters-from-china-others/3780026.html

That all said times they are a changing. Egypt just signed a deal for J-10CE fighter jets and Algeria is ready to buy VT-4 tanks. Both are abandoning Russia in favor of Chinese military equipment for very obvious reasons. This is likely one of the reasons China is in no hurry to see the end of the war. Watching Russia destroy itself and having all of it’s customer’s go to China doesn’t seem like it’s against China’s interests at the moment.

I consider myself center right actually. I’m sure you’ve noticed I’m very pro-business. Though socially far left as I think people should have the freedom to express themselves however they choose, that’s really none of my business. But perhaps that’s why you’re not as freaked out as I am. Because the reason I think I’m center left is because I’m pro-business. Watching the supposedly pro-business party light itself on fire and commit to incredibly un-business friendly decisions, especially based on personal feelings and worse anti-LGBTQ reasons it has put me into despair. Who’s here to protect businesses and make sure that the government doesn’t overreach? Our deficit spending is already almost 1 trillion dollars in payments a year, that’s insane. Cooler heads need to prevail and we need to get our economy back to normal. And part of to normal means normal trade with everyone. But who knows, like I said, maybe I’m over thinking it.

China will never attack Taiwan. I don’t know why people think they would since they keep telegraphing what they’ll do if push comes to shove. In the event that Taiwan declared independence and only in that situation (and Taiwan wouldn’t, they just passed a law that states the president can’t make that declaration alone) would China blockade Taiwan. They would try to starve Taiwan out and they could because as an island nation it’s entirely dependent on imports. The question people actually need to ask is who would be willing to go to a hot war for that? Especially since China would make exemptions to let trade through anyway, that they would only have this blockade here until Taiwan submits. And then you’ll have another frozen stand off like the one you have now. Because that’s what China really wants. They don’t want change they want stability. As you’ve so aptly pointed out, they are a patient people who are in no hurry for things to change. And you know what’s really really sad? How the west had twisted Xi’s words to make it out that he wanted to declare war. When Xi said the Taiwan situation will be resolved in this decade, what he was saying is he thought the relationship was going so well that Taiwan would wish to return to China willingly. You see at that time trade between the two was at a high point. People from Taiwan were going to China to get educated and find jobs there. Then the US started saying those were fighting words and that it meant China was going to attack to reunify within the decade. That China was only building up it’s military to do this, the attack would come before 2027. I think you know what happens next.

USA’s MIC is terrifying. They create scenarios and publish them and the news media gets ahold of them and suddenly fear is created everywhere. It just starts off as scenarios, they see one country has an advantage and then a torrent of articles will come out about it. Suddenly, now you have a new enemy. All China was doing was building up because as you said they’re building up because they’re wise. Well actually for sales, they really really want to be big in the arms market but that’s another thing entirely. And now we have what we have. This awkward stand off where there are no winners. And it’s all very sad really.

You bring up a great point. I do wonder about Kamala’s small business exemption. I do hope that passes, but I’d bet money it’ll go the way of Obama’s healthcare plan. Which is it’ll pass in a horrible form that won’t help anyone. Oh god, just remembering that makes me upset. The Republicans claimed that they wanted to protect the free market healthcare system and the ONLY THING they removed was the free market part of Obama’s plan. That still gets under my skin.

I realize, you have the same opinions as I do, except you don’t seem to be as terrified of the outcomes as I am. AND I’ll say, perhaps you’re right. And even if you’re not, perhaps I need to stop fretting about it as a whole, not exactly much that I can do.

So a bit of my own background. I’m Taiwanese American. This China hawk stuff scares the ever loving shit out of me. For reasons that has nothing to do with China. I fear the racism that this can create or has already created. The average American doesn’t know the difference between Taiwan and China and the hate just spreads from there. Don’t forget, Chinese people used to have to wear shirts in California that said don’t spit on me I’m Chinese.

Ultimately, I as many Taiwanese people agree believe that USA needs to stay the fuck out of it. They create issues and problems that they do not understand. The Taiwanese vote actually shows that, though you’ll never see it reported in a US newspaper. Taiwan voted in a Pro-US president and a Pro-China congress. We want stability and standing in the middle we believe is our best bet. But it would be super nice if USA stopped focusing on us. ESPECIALLY because the US politicians mostly just use it to enrich themselves rather than actually helping us.

Who keeps down voting you? It’s weird. It’s not me. But I noticed someone seems to keep down voting you. I upvoted your post to try to counter act that. That’s annoying since they obviously even part of our conversation. Anyway, I hear you and what you’re saying. The problem is I don’t see it. Let’s take tariffs for example. I’m opposed to tariffs because it’s a market distortion, and we’ve always known that. Which party do I vote for to stop tariffs. And not just on China but in general. We should be promoting free trade, after all that’s what made USA great to begin with. Yet now that our manufacturing isn’t up to snuff we decide that the solution is tariffs? Look at what happened to the Russian Lada. In the end the only way to keep that company running was to stop the tariffs and start buying foreign products into their production.

But that’s just one example. Obviously the cease fire is another and so on and so forth. Yes, there are minor differences in policies, but none of the ones that I really care about, save abortion (I can’t even believe that’s a thing right now). But the problem is the parties use these tiny differences to pretend that they’re different. Where’s the policies to support small business? What about giving small businesses a tax break so they can catch up?

I’m sure we can all find those pet issues that they do fight over, but that’s their trick. They go out of their way to force you to focus on the small things and ignore the bigger issues. It’s not new, but OMG is it spreading like wild fire.

We are a nation based on trade. If we destroy our trade, we destroy the fabric of the nation. And everyone is so focused on destroying trade.

I am about to share way way too much. So I figure I must be fairly attractive for a male, though I don’t consider myself all that attractive. I have been hit on by both women and gay men. Most men on this planet have not, from either.

Here’s the thing that women don’t get. Even for someone like me it’s few and far between. Like once a decade rare. And the few times it has happened, it did feel pretty good.

Imagine pining for that. I’m in a happy marriage, but I could imagine how lonely it would be to never have it happen ever.

So the saddest thing about her response that a straight man is jealous of the attention a 23 year old woman gets truly shows her ignorance. Because, many men would want that. Even if it’s just to get a compliment once.

It’s a sad world we live in.

On a whole I agree with you. You’re absolutely right I am singling out USA because they do the most damage. But arguably, they do the most damage because their so large and influential. Similarly as China grows, their decisions cause more and more damage as well. It’s the ripple effect of a Boulder vs a pebble.

But as you’ve highlighted, the people’s voices in USA don’t seem to matter and that bothers me. There are lots of voices, but the voices that go against the establishment, even if it’s a majority go unheard. That concerns me. A democracy that doesn’t listen to its voters isn’t a democracy to me.

Worse as this goes on, it appears to me that they’ve found the perfect way to ignore voices. By conflating all issues, they’ve created a system where all that matters is politicking and not actual policies. For example, the Republicans tied immigration to Ukraine funding. That’s fucking insane, but it worked.

In my opinion. USA needs to stop worrying about other nations and needs to fix our own democracy first. Unfortunately it’s clear to me now that isn’t going to happen. Instead they’re conflating issues to keep voices silent. Like the Democrats running around saying you have to vote for them on abortion and OK so they’re still allowing the massacre of Palestinians, but it’s toted not as bad as what Republicans would do. It’s messed up blackmail. And that’s all the US politics has become.

No I’m saying regardless of your opinion, you shouldn’t have an opinion based on the source of the statement is what I’m saying. Yes MBS is trash, but I would still listen to what he has to say.

Well I am saying a lot more now. I find you are receptive to information and aren’t just insulting me like most people online do. So I figure I’d share information because I honestly like that. Anyway yes China negotiated a lasting peace. The reason you don’t hear about it is because you live under US propaganda.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/11/changing-global-order-china-restores-ties-with-iran-and-saudi

While I agree all propaganda is bad, IMO the US one is the absolute most evil. It’s so effective Americans are actually under the delusion that we have to maintain our violent order to “keep the peace”. And so any people buy into it. To the point as you said, it would be politically devastating for our politicians to admit we are supporting genocide in Gaza.

*Edit oh and of course when real peace happens, we’ll just brush it under the rug. After all it won’t last. And when it lasts, well media black out. You’ll note the link is from Al Jezzera not a US paper.

*Edit 2: Also I was actually never talking about Russian propaganda. I think everyone misunderstood that. My argument is even if it’s true that Russia is doing this, US is so evil we need to question their statement. And then I made a list of evil things that USA does. Finally I followed with obviously I don’t support Russia, I just really don’t support USA. Here’s a horrible fact. USA has killed more people in less time than the Russian Ukraine war for even smaller reasons. Yes this is whataboutism, but my point is, anything that comes out of this empires mouth, we need to question. If it was Germany or France saying it, I wouldn’t have made my comment.

That’s all I was pointing out. And just wanted to add I think your right we should just leave ME. We have done nothing but destroy those people. There’s even a great movie about it. Charlie Wilson’s war. What ever human rights reasoning or freedom excuse always ends in massacre’s there. We should realize we are just a destabilizing force and leave. We saw China build a bridge between Saudi and Iran. We said it wouldn’t last, it did. Thus, perhaps we simply need to learn our lesson.

That’s sort of besides my point. And yes, the situation is wildly complicated and there are no easy answers.

What I was pointing out is simply for many policies there are actually no options. Such as wanting a cease fire. But this could go on with others like not wanting tariffs or lowering the military budget etc… Particularly for foreign policies both Democrats and Republicans are pretty much exactly the same.

But unfortunately the US government has proven your vote doesn’t matter. Especially for foreign policies like not genociding people. Who do you vote for to force a cease fire?

The fact that the US can’t repeal a horrifying violation of international law is well… I think we’ve made a full circle. When the US says ANYTHING we shouldn’t believe them and should doubt them.

I think we got off on the wrong foot. My statement wasn’t actually about Russia, it was about the US and how horrible they are and how the world really needs to think twice before agreeing to anything USA says.

So you think giving people freedoms to drink and go to bars is a bad thing?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/saudi-arabia-opens-first-liquor-store-rcna135597

And yes I’m fully aware of Khashoggi. What I’m saying is all people all governments have good and bad. I can easily agree with many things that awful people do. It doesn’t make them any less awful, but I’m not so ignorant to be opposed to something just because an awful person says it.

So to hate a good idea just because of it’s messenger is ignorant at best and harmful at worst.

The reason I bring this up is because in USA it’s becoming more and more like this. That regardless of what the policy is, the only thing the stupid politicians care about now is who the messenger is. And it’s doing incredible damage to the country.

Now, obviously you’re just making a statement. I don’t really disagree with it as I think MBS is a horrible human being. But I really don’t like the idea of agreeing or disagreeing with someone based on the person saying it.

It’s not what they said. It’s an actual bill. We nicknamed it the Invade Hague act. We literally have a law that says we will kill Europeans if they investigate our war crimes such as murdering children. Even the Australians recently took away medals for the horrible war crimes they committed.

Well unfortunately there are no international courts of law that USA would submit to. The only one, the ICC, they have literally threatened to invade if they did any kind of investigation into the GENOCIDAL CRIMES of the USA. So your argument that a court should prove it is moot since USA would nuke the court. Which is why I also find it hilarious that USA talks about rule of law when they actively threaten to wipe Brussels off the face of the earth.

*Edit: Oh man even Harvard is mocking them for that.

https://scholar.harvard.edu/ksikkink/blog/“invade-hague”-“support-icc”-america’s-shifting-stance-international-criminal-court

Also, I’m not talking about USA as in it’s people, I’m talking about the US government. Sorry I did not make that clear. After all, it’s not Joe Schmo talking about RT spreading propaganda.

I think your either avoiding what I’m saying or misunderstanding. This whole conversation is based on USA accusing Russia. Just like your axe murderer accusing another murderer. The whole point is when your a psychotic genocider, your opinions and statements should be rightfully ignored.

The problem with your hypothetical is that it doesn’t exist. The information is coming from an axe murderer and your just magically asserting the family is real and what he says is real.

The problem is when your an axe murderer, I no longer trust you. Just as we shouldn’t trust the USA because they do all the bad things they say others are doing. It’s an accountability issue. Which is if you want to say your a good guy, you kind of have to actually be a good guy.

*Edit. This is why I said innocents get caught up in gang wars but the police can’t do anything because the source of information is gangsters

When you understand both are whataboutism because it’s about the deflection not the action or the accusation, you’ll understand whataboutism.

And how do I know he has kids? I’m gonna trust an axe murderer?