SixSidedUrsine [comrade/them]

Nah, Marxist-Leninist analysis of the 30’s is deep and paints an accurate picture of what was actually going down at that time based on material reality instead of… you know, vibes that help prop up the idealist liberal’s flawed worldview. But to the contrary, the NATO sycophants’ history books that just straight make shit up throughout the 20th century have an almost complete amnesia regarding many 21st century and especially recent events leading up to the current situation now. That way, they can just assign motivations willy nilly to the current actors involved, no matter how arbitrary or nonsensical so long as, again, it supports their worldview, as Marvel movie-like it may be, and even as untenable as it is in the face of any actual historical context. Kinda sad.

You can’t argue with these NATO shills. They’ll just deny history or try to rewrite it in such a way as so as to also deny the current inconvenient reality, move goalpoasts, and accuse anyone with any sense as being on “Putin’s payroll.” If you use a material analysis of the situation, they screech about how talking about realpolitik is… bad somehow or something? It’s a mess. Look at this /u/maynarkh@feddit.nl loser right here in this very thread exemplifying what I’m talking about. They’re… equating “wokism” as a term with the concept of “escalation” (simply a thing that any sane person would agree does happen) and saying we use the latter the way chuds use the former. wut? lol. Lost the fucking plot. It’s nonsensical.

These kind of people can’t be reasoned with. They just regurgitate the propaganda they know, no matter how many times it’s been easily and thoroughly debunked. And to claim we’re the ones that sound like CIA ops when they’re the ones spouting the US state department lines like the good little sycophantic useful idiots that they are and carrying water for open, proud, admitted Nazi fascists while they call us “tankie red fash.” The projection is so painfully obvious it’s literally embarrassing.

I guess it could be a self defense mechanism for when one knows in the back of their mind that everything they’re saying is just pure ahistorical often chauvinist horseshit but they know their worldview would come crashing down if they didn’t do everything in their power to keep tilling it and shoveling it, so till it and shovel it they must. Truly, it’s… .

Same. I was looking for a quote attribution at the end, probably to some well-established author, but realized this comment was too specific to this context. Well written, ProfessorAC, well written.

This site confuses you only because deprogramming a lifetime of being steeped in imperialist propaganda can be hard. Part of that deprogramming is recognizing that almost everything Russia is doing internationally is good and worthy of support, including fighting US imperialism/NATO and Ukrainian banderite fascists.

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Have you even been following the war at all?! ive seen 4k videos of Russia bombing Ukrainian Civilians for months now

Russia has been extremely restrained in destroying Ukrainian infrastructure, especially in the first year of the war. It has also made strong efforts to avoid civilian casualties. Considering it wants to incorporate the zones where there is the greatest conflict into being part of the Russian Federation, it’s not like this is surprising either. I’m sure this sounds shocking or ludicrous to someone who has been closely following along, and I do take your word for it that you have. But there is a very good reason for that. To explain:

I have also been following the war extremely closely since the beginning, including from countless telegram channels of people on the ground on both sides in addition to official outlets and what I’ve seen is a massive amount of ridiculous false propaganda spewing out of Ukraine’s official outlets that the west eats up and repeats without question, often amplifying the false parts and making up even more. It is to the benefit of both the current Ukrainian rulers and the west to make this propaganda, so I’m not saying Ukraine is doing this to the west, I’m saying they’re both complicit. Yes, I’ve seen plenty of propaganda from Russia too, obviously, but it is nowhere near the same scale or level of outright lying about what’s actually happening on the ground, not because Russia is somehow above all that (it’s definitely not) but because it has far less need for such false propaganda. (It is also arguably not as good at propaganda as the West which has the most developed propaganda apparatus in the history of humanity).

There is material reasons behind all of this. Ukraine relies almost entirely on NATO countries for its ability to wage war, this is not in question. It therefore needs to sell that war as not only just, but winnable - and whatever you you think of how just it is, it is definitely not winnable in terms of taking back the currently occupied regions let alone Crimea. That will simply never happen. NATO also has a vested interest in Ukraine winning this war, and in many ways is NATO’s proxy war, so it also has an interest in pushing this propaganda on the people of its member nations. However, Russia has ramped up production of its war machine (and is highly self sufficient despite what some western propaganda might say about them having to fight with shovels lol) and importantly is not dependent on other countries to wage this war. It doesn’t need to sell this war internationally and It doesn’t even need to sell this war to the Russian populace who already broadly support it. Hence the large difference in amount and severity of false propaganda. If you have been following the war closely, but you have been relying entirely or mostly on Ukrainian, Western, and NATO information (which is understandable because it’s really all you get offered in the west), you have been closely following a massively lopsided story being told to you by someone who isn’t just distorting fact, but outright lying.

Since you specifically mentioned bombing of infrastructure, here is one example I just happened on in a different thread today. It’s from the New York Times, which has been one of the cringiest large network liars throughout the conflict, but even here they are making an admission that what was claimed to be Russian attack was actually Ukraine itself. This happens all the time but usually admissions aren’t made or are done very quietly so everyone believes the first story of “look at how horrible Russia is!” My suspicion is that admissions like these are starting to happen more often because there is beginning to be a shift in the narrative and propaganda as it becomes increasingly clear how unwinnable this is for Ukraine and NATO is beginning to look to pull support.

NYT: Evidence Suggests Ukrainian Missile Caused Market Tragedy

From their original article:

A Russian missile strike in Kostyantynivka that killed at least 17 and injured more than 30 others was one of the deadliest in months.

There are tons of other examples of this, but I don’t currently have access to the laptop I saved all my sources on. Anyway, the reality is that you are being lied to constantly about the crimes Russia is supposedly committing, at the very least, the severity of them. And it’s helpful to understand why.

I know I’ll get called a Russian bot/shill for pointing these things out. Whatever. I have no love for Russia. Fuck Putin and the reactionary Russian government. But I really do despise the intensity of misinformation I’ve been witnessing and how it gets repeated by genuinely well-meaning people around me (I’m in the west too) who only have access to lies that are perpetuating death and human misery.

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At the risk of being a little petty by using this post as an opportunity to address some things said to me on the locked thread I never got a chance to respond to:

Comparing killing the Romanovs to not only dropping atomic bombs on civilians, but also to the Iraq War you really have no sense of scale at all huh.

It has nothing to do with scale. It has to do with the justice (or rather injustice) of innocent people, kids nonetheless, being killed. I am so very aware of the scale. I am aware of the insignificant scale any of this makes in the geologic history of the earth. I am aware of the insignificance of the scale of less than a dozen people compared to thousands. I am also aware of the scale of being from a family where a single child was murdered. Gone. Dead. Lost. And while her snuffed out little life is not on the scale of the devastation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all the children wiped out from that despicable war crime, the life she won’t ever have is NOT FUCKING INSIGNIFICANT. I assure you, on the scale of her family and the people who loved that child, it matters. It always fucking matters. Got that? It always matters.

I really don’t care about this at all, I’m sorry it makes you so upset.

That’s very telling. I’d say thanks for your crocodile tear “sorries,” but I know you don’t care about the death of children who you don’t personally know because you said as much. A few kids a hundred years ago, right? Who cares? None of the kids murdered by the OG nazis will matter soon, so long as they’re taken on an individual basis. It’s only scale that matters.

This is a great effort post, thank you! A few early things to comment on though:

While not exactly of practical significance given how few of us have Royal Families locked up in our basement

That is of course true. But if anyone here is ever in a position where, ‘god willing,’ we are participating in a proletariat revolution (unlikely in the imperial core but much more likely outside it), this precedent most certainty could be of practical significance.

This strand of amoral communism thus is not terribly interested in this discussion, and anyone here that adheres to that framework is excused from the discussion as having won the argument.

Excused from it, yes, but not having “won” it. It is fundamentally a moral argument, which means the people taking that amoral position should have nothing to say on the matter outside of context-specific events where every eventuality is already known. What I mean, is that if the children of monarchs were to survive, we wouldn’t know that this would lead to even more death and suffering, which is the claim of the child-murder apologists. We don’t know that, even in retrospect with the killing of the Romanov children, it’s still a hypothetical. We do know that the collective capitalist world didn’t need any such excuse to use every means at their disposal to undermine it even in the most petty ways. If it’s the position the strict determinists take that morality should not be a consideration, it should also be the position they take on any argument where morality is in question.

Choosing not to participate is a reasonable position, but it is not “winning,” only neutral at best. Morality exists, even if it is not the domain of a Marxism that only serves to describe the world and not change it. But isn’t that the point, as someone said?

Excusing the murder of children for “practical” concerns will never be moral, and any Marxist who bases their politics on their sense of morality (even if doing so is not strictly 100% the vulgar materialism some here seem to advocate for), it is extremely common. What’s more, it is not in contradiction with a strict materialist approach.

“lol, you actually care about innocent people? What a rube! What a LIB!”

And no, I don’t give a shit what you clutch pearls about - I mean, I would have thought someone interested in liberation would give a shit about human beings, but maybe that was naive of me - I’m said the “former comrades” thing because I expect the people I consider comrades not to support murdering the children simply because those children were born to their (and my) class enemies.

And get the fuck out of here with your “ooooooooh, but that’s ReVoLuTiOnN!!” schtick. You’re like the fucking reactionaries talking about those woke tankies for being upset by the “collateral damage” of all those Iraqi civilians. Oh boo hoo, innocent people. Who gives a shit about them, right? That’s just WAR. Yeah, no shit people die in war, but you pretending that that’s the same as there being innocent people who are your prisoners and are defenseless, literally children who at your mercy and then choosing to shoot them… That kind of false equivalency and gross disregard for innocent people truly is beyond the pale.

Kill the reactionary chud in YOUR head.

So yes, fuck you. You are no comrade of mine, just as no apologists for bigotry, SA, fascism, or in this case, child murder, are. It’s like that Che quote “if you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine.” Well, you clearly aren’t because you clearly don’t give a shit about injustice, so long as it’s perpetrated by those you deem to be on your side.

I don’t know, if the marxists or anarchists I work with irl ever said that kind of shit, I wouldn’t work with them anymore (and we have discussed the topic). Simple as a that. Personally, I’m an atheist and haven’t come up against any contradictions between my leftism and my morality or humanism. But if religion is what it takes for people to recognize that killing kids because of some hypothetical future scenario is wrong and will never be justified, then I say keep the churches full.

I’m just making sure we’re all on the same page about not machine gunning children.

I’m honestly shocked that this even has to be said here, let alone that apparently so many really aren’t on the same page that machine-gunning children is both wrong and unjustifiable.

And again, that’s exactly what the fascist apologists for the dropping of nuclear bombs on innocent Japanese civilians say.

“I can’t imagine getting upset over something like child murder.” I almost put in one of the disgust emojis here but it felt like it was too light-hearted for the disgust I’m actually feeling right now for people I used to think of as comrades.

Fuck you. Killing children is never necessary. If you can’t understand that, I don’t know what else to say.

the enforcement of authority of the proletariat must be carried out agaisnt the former oppressors.

Children were never the oppressors you fucking ghoul! You remind me of the goddamned apologists for the US nuking Japan “anything done in the name of furthering the goals of my side, even deliberately to innocent people born in the wrong place at the wrong time, may seem icky but thems the way it is. I’m just being practical.” Not only does the argument rest entirely on a possibility of what might happen, it’s completely unjustified regardless.

but you shouldn’t be hoping for something that prolongs the war./

lol, what do you think I’m “hoping” for? Stating the fact that Russia can easily do what it has been doing indefinitely (but Ukraine cannot) has nothing to do with my hopes.

So is using a map of the countries supporting Ukraine to insinuate that the all the other countries must therefore be on Russia’s side.

No one ever did any such thing, just noted that support comes in many forms other than military equipment, which Russia has mostly already covered for itself, even if it buys drone parts from Iran. Unlike Ukraine which now relies wholly and entirely on outside help for all of its material need. You changed the goalposts for what “support” means to make it sound like only military equipment counts as support, which is foolish because it isn’t what Russia needs. You’re just trying to move the goalposts all over the place to make it seem like you have some kind of valid point, but you don’t. Even if countries are not sending unneeded tanks, Russia still has plenty of support all over the world, mostly from countries who rightly recognize this as a struggle against the imperialism of the US and NATO which is beneficial to any anti-imperialists (including any actual leftists, even though so many western “leftists” drink deeply of their overlord’s propaganda).

but Russia hasn’t been able to get the kind of [material] support from its allies that Ukraine has

It hasn’t needed to. Ukraine wouldn’t be a functional state at all by this point were it not for the tens of billions of dollars in aid as well as all the military equipment slowly depleting the west. Russia on the other hand, has been doing quite well in holding it’s own economically despite the sanctions and in holding the literal defensive line against all the NATO weaponry. It’s a nonsensical comparison to make.

It’s so fucking funny when the geopolitics understanders who have been drip-fed NATO propaganda state the clear opposite of reality and think they made an insightful comment.

Russia has all but won the military conflict, as has been made clear by this utter failure of a “counteroffensive.” Russia is doing better economically than before the SMO, despite the supposed economic wunderwaffen sanctions that only backfired and hurt NATO countries. Russia has only gained support by most of the rest of the world and has showed the global south that the US/NATO are indeed paper tigers. Russia has all the leverage now. So yes, for Russia to compromise right now would be bad for them because they don’t need to compromise, they can keep going as they have been and eventually have their demands met, or Ukraine/NATO can recognize they’ve lost and make a bid for peace by acquiescing to Russia’s demands before more lives are needlessly lost.

Ukraine on the other hand will be crippled for decades regardless of how things pan out. Ukraine is now deeply indebted to Western countries, has already had all national assets sold off, has had a major chunk of its working-age population killed or maimed, and is beholden to a fascist, nazi-worshipping government.

As for Germany, yeah they have been working to the end of hobbling themselves for decades too by allowing their remaining industrial capacity to be completely gutted, kowtowing to their US masters that bombed their infrastructure to prevent them ever again getting oil from ‘The Bad Country,’ they have irreparably removed nuclear power as an option even as they’re facing an impending energy crisis (in large part because of aforementioned no-oil-from-bad-country), and are right now also sliding towards right wing populism.

Putin broke the Minsk Agreements, huh?

Anyone who wants to can go find out the truth of that claim and they will find that it was Ukraine/NATO that broke the agreements which is literally the reason it came to war. This was admitted to openly even by Angela fucking Merkel, who said they only drafted the agreements to buy time for Ukraine to build up more arms and continue antagonizing the Donbas.