Trans isn’t really the same sort of thing as Lesbian/Gay/Bi/Ace (which all describe sexual partner preferences not gender identities/expression) and I think that confuses people sometimes
Dont even need to be on the lgbt clock yo be called a removed its word use is thing of liberal and versatile beauty. Cunt will always be my personal favourite tho
This might be a surprise to learn, but some people actually go on dates in public places. Even areas you would think are safe like restaurants, movie theaters, bars and parks. There you can see all kinds of debauchery like hugging, saying I love you, some freaks even hold hands in front of other people.
When a man holds another mans hand, or a woman a woman etc. Doesnt take a genius to infer. Its not “invisible being forced to visible”. So instead of pushing the narrative of “just consistently police yourself so that no one knows anything about you” why not push the “mind your own business and dont intrude into peoples lives” one instead? I.e. you can marry, get healthcare, and opportunities for employment regardless?
Also its not “preference” unless you agree that heterosexual people just “prefer” the opposite sex, but can always change if their “tastes shift”
Me and my spouse go out on a date, we walk into the store holding hands, play footsy while ordering, share a dessert, and have a good kiss or two before walking out.
How do you propose that no one knows what my sexual preference is in that situation?
That’s a situation where you are (intimate) with your partner.
I was talking about situations where you are alone on the street… there is no reason why another person should be able to guess what your sexual preferences are.
That’s not even what I said… I said that if you are alone (i.e. not with your partner, doing obvious partner activities) how would anyone even know that you are gay?
They are doing an activity that a straight person would do (i.e. hang out with a partner) and judged differently.
In an ideal world, you would be right. Heck, you can hold hands, hug, kiss anyone and not be gay! But doing those activities for people that look gay attracts negative attention. People with non-conforming appearances get judged differently. Girl with short hair? Guy with long hair? Guy wearing a dress? These are completely normal things for certain presenting genders that I have seen called slurs.
Girl with short hair? Guy with long hair? Guy wearing a dress?
So you are not actually being harassed for your sexual preferences, but for dressing unconventionally…
I’m ready to bet that two average / boring looking guys making out in public will get less harassment, than any guy with colorful hair walking in high heels or something.
If you are an effeminate gay like my husband. People can tell right away no matter what he is doing and people will give him the stink eye or throw a slur his way.
And? Trans individuals were fighting alongside the rest of us for gay rights, gay marriage, etc, since the very beginning. People forget it was the out, loud and proud “freaks” and “weirdos” that spearhead the movement because they were brave enough to speak out when the rest of us couldn’t/wouldn’t. Many of them were trans individuals who put themselves in danger for the cause. Now the heat is off us and is on them, and we hang them out to dry because some people “might be confused”? Anyone with this mentality can please fuck right off.
Never said there should be no solidarity, but Trans people were/are also huge civil rights activists and we haven’t added races into the acronym—was just pointing out that it can cause confusion.
Gender and sexuality are socially entwined: how often have you heard that a gay man isn’t a man, that a woman is too pretty (read: feminine) to be a lesbian, that “gay” traits and “traits of the opposite gender” are one and the same, or at least have heavy overlap?
There is going to be bleeding between groups, both internal to the community by people who fall into multiple categories or revel in the freedom that umbrella terms like “queer” bring to them, and without, by those who look at a heterosexual drag queen and only see a freak. Slicing it apart is how you force people to choose terms that don’t apply to them for the sake of remaining within a community, which goes against everything that MY queerdom stands for.
I’d rather outsiders be confused than my own people not feel at home.
Right, if you think about it, why are gay men and lesbian women discriminated against? It’'s because of their gender transgressions – because they don’t share the same desire as others of their gender.
We added races to the flag though. Intersectionality is the way.
And there’s a reason my generation embraced the word “queer” because it encompassed anyone gender nonconforming without demanding that they define themselves. Trans, gay, nonbinary, ace are all gender nonconforming identities in some way.
Yeah I’m the tail end of Gen X and “genderqueer” also still makes me wince, though I understand the reclaiming. I much prefer genderfluid. It just sounds so nice lol
I feel like millennials are in a weird place with this one? I personally grew up in the f***** world, hearing queer in any context almost never. It was a word I mostly read in old and fantasy books that meant strange or unusual. Don’t get me wrong, I’m from the south and knew and know all the slurs (I’ve always had the unseemly duty of teaching my wife what slurs mean when she encounters a new one in art or media =/) but queer wasn’t in regular circulation in my life. To me, the weird part about the reclamation was that it felt like reviving a dead word.
Well not really. Its a fallacy. By adding more and more it becomes more and more ridiculous. To the point that the lgbt community who was once shunned by a religious majority. Has now become religious in turn to try and accomodate every single group that is perceived as weak.
And I’m asking why it should matter in this context. Even in its earliest form the gay rights movement considered gender non-conforming individuals as an inherent part of the community, and no one cared if others were confused (frankly, they were all too busy fighting for their fucking lives). Why should we care to differentiate now when our predecessors didn’t at a time when their safety and lives were at stake? Only reason it’s being questioned now is because, exactly as the comic points out, the issue is being pushed by far right groups to create a wedge between us.
Public understanding is an important part of changing social norms. People need to be able to conceptualize things in order to understand them. Using clear terminology is an important part of this. Lumping together sexual preferences with gender expression muddies understanding.
Some people think others should simply tolerate differences but I think we are looking for acceptance and not mere tolerance. I think acceptance requires understanding. I think clear terminology aides understanding.
This is way too much good faith for extremist hate and exclusion. Do you suggest what, trans people should just fight on their own? It’s not just a fight about what bathrooms to use and we are already seeing the signs that after trans, the rest of the alphabet is next.
And they are including race into it more and more because the singular similarity is that it’s a group of people that are hated viciously and have their rights and freedoms and saftey threatened for things they cannot control about themselves.
If you really don’t understand that, and even as part of the community, think it’s just a problem that it confuses people because it’s not about love but gender identity (and thus being able to love yourself) then well, I would really like to go live in that world where hate is only because of confusion and understanding. That’s definitely a factor but not here.
I’m genderqueer, but growing up in a crappy little Midwest town, not conforming to gender norms meant I was “gay” and I was bullied for being gay. The bigots we’re never confused, they are out to get us all.
And so my closest friends were and are the LGBT+ fam, because our reasons and identities may be different, but the prejudices we face are remarkably similar.
Everyone of every stripe has the potential to face similer prejudice based on circumstance. Activists cant take the stand of all lives matter because they need to priortise the lives of others the value more. As their perception of morality is relative to what they know and can see
Having gender dysphoria is not the same as a sexual orientation.
And the trans movement is convincing gay kids they are a different gender and medicalising them.
But because the T has joined the LGB umbrella - any sane questioning of the trans movement - not trans people, the trans movement - is met with accusations of bigotry.
Trans isn’t really the same sort of thing as Lesbian/Gay/Bi/Ace (which all describe sexual partner preferences not gender identities/expression) and I think that confuses people sometimes
Some jackass on the street is going to call me a f****t no matter which letter of LGBT they clock me on
Dont even need to be on the lgbt clock yo be called a removed its word use is thing of liberal and versatile beauty. Cunt will always be my personal favourite tho
What the hell does “removed” even mean? I’ve seen it referred to as an insult, but I don’t get the point.
Some instances filter out certain words. It looks like the comment above triggered one of lemmy.world’s filters
Makes perfect sense, thanks.
Why is sexual preference even something that is visible? It should only be obviously visible when you are intimate with your partner…
This might be a surprise to learn, but some people actually go on dates in public places. Even areas you would think are safe like restaurants, movie theaters, bars and parks. There you can see all kinds of debauchery like hugging, saying I love you, some freaks even hold hands in front of other people.
When a man holds another mans hand, or a woman a woman etc. Doesnt take a genius to infer. Its not “invisible being forced to visible”. So instead of pushing the narrative of “just consistently police yourself so that no one knows anything about you” why not push the “mind your own business and dont intrude into peoples lives” one instead? I.e. you can marry, get healthcare, and opportunities for employment regardless?
Also its not “preference” unless you agree that heterosexual people just “prefer” the opposite sex, but can always change if their “tastes shift”
Signalling is a fundamental part of social communication, always has been, always will be. You do it all the time, you’re likely just not aware of it.
why should anyone have to hide who they love and are attracted to? straight people certainly don’t
Me and my spouse go out on a date, we walk into the store holding hands, play footsy while ordering, share a dessert, and have a good kiss or two before walking out.
How do you propose that no one knows what my sexual preference is in that situation?
That’s a situation where you are (intimate) with your partner. I was talking about situations where you are alone on the street… there is no reason why another person should be able to guess what your sexual preferences are.
You heard it here folks, no kissing no holding hands on the street. No not even you straighties, keep it in your home!
Sexual preferences stupid
Straight folks take their kids out in public and shove it in everyone’s face that they had heterosexual intercourse to make them. Bunch of sickos!
That’s not even what I said… I said that if you are alone (i.e. not with your partner, doing obvious partner activities) how would anyone even know that you are gay?
They are doing an activity that a straight person would do (i.e. hang out with a partner) and judged differently.
In an ideal world, you would be right. Heck, you can hold hands, hug, kiss anyone and not be gay! But doing those activities for people that look gay attracts negative attention. People with non-conforming appearances get judged differently. Girl with short hair? Guy with long hair? Guy wearing a dress? These are completely normal things for certain presenting genders that I have seen called slurs.
Regardless, have fun moving the goal posts again.
So you are not actually being harassed for your sexual preferences, but for dressing unconventionally…
I’m ready to bet that two average / boring looking guys making out in public will get less harassment, than any guy with colorful hair walking in high heels or something.
If you are an effeminate gay like my husband. People can tell right away no matter what he is doing and people will give him the stink eye or throw a slur his way.
its simple, if you dont want people to hate crime you just dont do gay things /s
Poe’s law meant I was debating if this was serious until the /s, lmao
And? Trans individuals were fighting alongside the rest of us for gay rights, gay marriage, etc, since the very beginning. People forget it was the out, loud and proud “freaks” and “weirdos” that spearhead the movement because they were brave enough to speak out when the rest of us couldn’t/wouldn’t. Many of them were trans individuals who put themselves in danger for the cause. Now the heat is off us and is on them, and we hang them out to dry because some people “might be confused”? Anyone with this mentality can please fuck right off.
Never said there should be no solidarity, but Trans people were/are also huge civil rights activists and we haven’t added races into the acronym—was just pointing out that it can cause confusion.
Gender and sexuality are socially entwined: how often have you heard that a gay man isn’t a man, that a woman is too pretty (read: feminine) to be a lesbian, that “gay” traits and “traits of the opposite gender” are one and the same, or at least have heavy overlap?
There is going to be bleeding between groups, both internal to the community by people who fall into multiple categories or revel in the freedom that umbrella terms like “queer” bring to them, and without, by those who look at a heterosexual drag queen and only see a freak. Slicing it apart is how you force people to choose terms that don’t apply to them for the sake of remaining within a community, which goes against everything that MY queerdom stands for.
I’d rather outsiders be confused than my own people not feel at home.
Right, if you think about it, why are gay men and lesbian women discriminated against? It’'s because of their gender transgressions – because they don’t share the same desire as others of their gender.
We added races to the flag though. Intersectionality is the way.
And there’s a reason my generation embraced the word “queer” because it encompassed anyone gender nonconforming without demanding that they define themselves. Trans, gay, nonbinary, ace are all gender nonconforming identities in some way.
As a Gen X, “queer” still makes me wince internally since I remember when it was only a slur and hadn’t been taken back. But I’m glad it was!
Yeah I’m the tail end of Gen X and “genderqueer” also still makes me wince, though I understand the reclaiming. I much prefer genderfluid. It just sounds so nice lol
I feel like millennials are in a weird place with this one? I personally grew up in the f***** world, hearing queer in any context almost never. It was a word I mostly read in old and fantasy books that meant strange or unusual. Don’t get me wrong, I’m from the south and knew and know all the slurs (I’ve always had the unseemly duty of teaching my wife what slurs mean when she encounters a new one in art or media =/) but queer wasn’t in regular circulation in my life. To me, the weird part about the reclamation was that it felt like reviving a dead word.
Well not really. Its a fallacy. By adding more and more it becomes more and more ridiculous. To the point that the lgbt community who was once shunned by a religious majority. Has now become religious in turn to try and accomodate every single group that is perceived as weak.
There’s a big difference between weakness and oppression, and you would do well to understand that.
Sincerely, someone who is LGB and religious
And I’m asking why it should matter in this context. Even in its earliest form the gay rights movement considered gender non-conforming individuals as an inherent part of the community, and no one cared if others were confused (frankly, they were all too busy fighting for their fucking lives). Why should we care to differentiate now when our predecessors didn’t at a time when their safety and lives were at stake? Only reason it’s being questioned now is because, exactly as the comic points out, the issue is being pushed by far right groups to create a wedge between us.
I agree it’s worth explaining—here’s my logic
Public understanding is an important part of changing social norms. People need to be able to conceptualize things in order to understand them. Using clear terminology is an important part of this. Lumping together sexual preferences with gender expression muddies understanding.
Some people think others should simply tolerate differences but I think we are looking for acceptance and not mere tolerance. I think acceptance requires understanding. I think clear terminology aides understanding.
This is way too much good faith for extremist hate and exclusion. Do you suggest what, trans people should just fight on their own? It’s not just a fight about what bathrooms to use and we are already seeing the signs that after trans, the rest of the alphabet is next.
And they are including race into it more and more because the singular similarity is that it’s a group of people that are hated viciously and have their rights and freedoms and saftey threatened for things they cannot control about themselves.
If you really don’t understand that, and even as part of the community, think it’s just a problem that it confuses people because it’s not about love but gender identity (and thus being able to love yourself) then well, I would really like to go live in that world where hate is only because of confusion and understanding. That’s definitely a factor but not here.
I’m genderqueer, but growing up in a crappy little Midwest town, not conforming to gender norms meant I was “gay” and I was bullied for being gay. The bigots we’re never confused, they are out to get us all.
And so my closest friends were and are the LGBT+ fam, because our reasons and identities may be different, but the prejudices we face are remarkably similar.
Everyone of every stripe has the potential to face similer prejudice based on circumstance. Activists cant take the stand of all lives matter because they need to priortise the lives of others the value more. As their perception of morality is relative to what they know and can see
June being pride month was literally started by a trans woman throwing a brick at a cop and her community (including gay people) rallying around her.
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Removed by mod
You’re quite right.
Having gender dysphoria is not the same as a sexual orientation.
And the trans movement is convincing gay kids they are a different gender and medicalising them.
But because the T has joined the LGB umbrella - any sane questioning of the trans movement - not trans people, the trans movement - is met with accusations of bigotry.
It’s the perfect hiding place.