The Old Testament does makes it fairly clear that there are other gods, because it started as a polytheistic religion, Jehovah is just supposed to be your favorite (or he’ll kill you).
It’s the modern interpretations that decided to interpret that as monotheism, but that includes Christianity.
The first commandment is literally “you shall have no other gods before me.” If you look at different historical translations and viewpoints, it is well accepted that Judaism experienced a shift from polytheism to monotheism, and there is more evidence of that in the Old Testament. Passages referring to Yahwehs wife, waging war to defeat other gods, etc.
It’s talking about concepts, and the false gods existing as a concept. You could even have something like money, etc, be your god. What’s your source on “Yahweh’s wife” apart from the Church itself being His bride? (Which still doesn’t make the Church a god)
There’s verses in Kings, Judges, and I’ll look back over my Jewish Studies course notes from last semester for more academic sources tomorrow. Notably the worship of Baal and Asherah are present, and iirc Asherah was associated with some Israelites to be Yahwehs wife. We’re talking pre-Greek and Roman time periods where Gods were considered much more physical - as we see with Genesis with Yahweh referred to as walking in the garden.
The concepts of gods being more etherial didn’t come about for a few more centuries after, maybe by the time Christianity started popping off (again, gotta go to sleep but will check dates if ya need tomorrow). See also the Cyprus Cylinder for comparison and reference to conquering of the Israelites, orders that allowed them to continue to worship as they pleased, while still essentially talking shit and saying “Our God is stronger than yours.”
May be worth asking chatgpt. The Bible has been rewritten so many times to adjust for major cultural shifts, but there’s definitely evidence within it and other historical writings.
I’ll need to know the exact verses. Yahweh has already had a physical form - through Jesus, who’s identified as the actual creator of the world. There are plenty of appearances Jesus makes in the Old Testament as well through Christophanies. Now I hear you saying something about “oh that’s just a modern Christian interpretation put on old Jewish texts”, but the Incarnation of our Lord actually shows that God has always had that physical aspect of Him - Jesus Christ. Who was shown in fullness during the 33~ years He was on earth.
Again, the existence of worship of other gods like Baal and Asherah doesn’t mean Christianity was ever polytheistic - in fact, the narrative strongly shows Baal and Asherah to be false gods - attributions. Not something that was actually canon, just a competing belief system. Kind of like how Mormonism claims to be an addition to Christianity, yet isn’t Christian canon but is just a competing belief system, you had someone attributing a goddess to a yahweh as his wife.
In Christianity though, the bride of Christ is actually The Church - but that’s a whole and another topic.
I mean, idk if we’re having some difference in understanding, but this is a bit out of my scope as far as spiritual interpretation. I’m an atheist looking at it more in thought experiment mode with some historical reference. If those are your beliefs then power to ya, but it’s not quite my bag of tea to debate spiritualism, sorry:) if I’ve misunderstood please lemme know
Their claim does have support in so far that the early testament contains a lot of work written by polytheistic people that later in would become the monolatrists and even later monotheists that we know as Jews, further branching off into what today are Christians.
This does not mean that Christians in any sense are not purely monotheistic. Not only are they so, it’s one of the most critical parts of their beliefs, to the point where even believing that their one god has in any way shape or form some kind of tangible division is considered strict heresy from trinitarian churches which form the mainstream of Christianity and have done so for hundreds of years.
Yes, plenty of people do this. Notably theological liberals and people who view other doctrines and worldviews in judgement of the Bible. This isn’t the standpoint I am arguing for, though.
The Old Testament does makes it fairly clear that there are other gods, because it started as a polytheistic religion, Jehovah is just supposed to be your favorite (or he’ll kill you).
It’s the modern interpretations that decided to interpret that as monotheism, but that includes Christianity.
There’s no evidence for your claim. And the old testament does not. Yes, it refers to other gods as concepts but not as literal Gods
The first commandment is literally “you shall have no other gods before me.” If you look at different historical translations and viewpoints, it is well accepted that Judaism experienced a shift from polytheism to monotheism, and there is more evidence of that in the Old Testament. Passages referring to Yahwehs wife, waging war to defeat other gods, etc.
It’s talking about concepts, and the false gods existing as a concept. You could even have something like money, etc, be your god. What’s your source on “Yahweh’s wife” apart from the Church itself being His bride? (Which still doesn’t make the Church a god)
There’s verses in Kings, Judges, and I’ll look back over my Jewish Studies course notes from last semester for more academic sources tomorrow. Notably the worship of Baal and Asherah are present, and iirc Asherah was associated with some Israelites to be Yahwehs wife. We’re talking pre-Greek and Roman time periods where Gods were considered much more physical - as we see with Genesis with Yahweh referred to as walking in the garden.
The concepts of gods being more etherial didn’t come about for a few more centuries after, maybe by the time Christianity started popping off (again, gotta go to sleep but will check dates if ya need tomorrow). See also the Cyprus Cylinder for comparison and reference to conquering of the Israelites, orders that allowed them to continue to worship as they pleased, while still essentially talking shit and saying “Our God is stronger than yours.”
May be worth asking chatgpt. The Bible has been rewritten so many times to adjust for major cultural shifts, but there’s definitely evidence within it and other historical writings.
I’ll need to know the exact verses. Yahweh has already had a physical form - through Jesus, who’s identified as the actual creator of the world. There are plenty of appearances Jesus makes in the Old Testament as well through Christophanies. Now I hear you saying something about “oh that’s just a modern Christian interpretation put on old Jewish texts”, but the Incarnation of our Lord actually shows that God has always had that physical aspect of Him - Jesus Christ. Who was shown in fullness during the 33~ years He was on earth.
Again, the existence of worship of other gods like Baal and Asherah doesn’t mean Christianity was ever polytheistic - in fact, the narrative strongly shows Baal and Asherah to be false gods - attributions. Not something that was actually canon, just a competing belief system. Kind of like how Mormonism claims to be an addition to Christianity, yet isn’t Christian canon but is just a competing belief system, you had someone attributing a goddess to a yahweh as his wife.
In Christianity though, the bride of Christ is actually The Church - but that’s a whole and another topic.
I mean, idk if we’re having some difference in understanding, but this is a bit out of my scope as far as spiritual interpretation. I’m an atheist looking at it more in thought experiment mode with some historical reference. If those are your beliefs then power to ya, but it’s not quite my bag of tea to debate spiritualism, sorry:) if I’ve misunderstood please lemme know
Their claim does have support in so far that the early testament contains a lot of work written by polytheistic people that later in would become the monolatrists and even later monotheists that we know as Jews, further branching off into what today are Christians.
This does not mean that Christians in any sense are not purely monotheistic. Not only are they so, it’s one of the most critical parts of their beliefs, to the point where even believing that their one god has in any way shape or form some kind of tangible division is considered strict heresy from trinitarian churches which form the mainstream of Christianity and have done so for hundreds of years.
Edit: There is a great video by Alex O’Connor interviewing Esoterica on that topic in particular and they talk about the evidence that supports the viewpoints.
Wrong, read a book.
You tell him to read a book.
I think you should open your eyes.
You’ll find that’s usually the way the sighted read books.
I’ve read a book; the Bible, and it makes it clear that there are no other gods. Even an atheist can read the Bible and decipher that
As if it’s not typical for y’all to read something and decide it means what you want it to mean and not what it literally says ;)
Yes, plenty of people do this. Notably theological liberals and people who view other doctrines and worldviews in judgement of the Bible. This isn’t the standpoint I am arguing for, though.