It’s really frustrating, I was talking to someone about how successful China has been in de-radicalization of reactionaries. But they responded to this by saying they’re only successful because, and I quote “put them all in concentration camps and killed them”
Has anyone here been successful in deprogramming people about this topic? If so any good sources I can use to dissuade them? I tried telling them that the UN report, if you read it, just says that there’s concerns about abuse by internment offcials, and there’s no evidence of genocide. But when I say this they just dismiss it as if the UN is controlled by the PRC. It’s like a religion to liberals to believe anything bad about China and can get really frustrating.
I try to get them to read the un report. It doesn’t work.
Can you link that please?
So no mention of the word genocide, and just concerns about possibly arbitrary detentions in 2017-2019, gotcha. Thanks a lot for the source. I wonder how people react to this when they can now see a patently open genocide on social media anytime they want.
Serious human rights violations have been committed in XUAR
Allegations of patterns of torture or ill-treatment, including forced medical treatment and adverse conditions of detention, are credible
There are serious indications of violations of reproductive rights
The extent of arbitrary and discriminatory detention… may constitute international crimes, in particular crimes against humanity.
Genocide is a fashionable term to throw around these days, and much argued over; but the UN report you all keep lauding doesn’t seem particularly flattering when actually read.
The extent of arbitrary and discriminatory detention…
Nice of you not following with the part where it says that the extent is unknown, and the report on forced medical treatment, poor conditions of detention and violations of reproductive rights, is based on anonymous interviews to a few tens of people, as is literally any source that makes these claims because there’s no other evidence to support those claims, despite it being 7 years since the beginning of the supposed atrocities. It brings nothing new to the table compared to the old Amnesty International report, based on the same methodology, proving further that no real findings have been made.
Also, your comment of “genocide being a fashionable term these days” is absolutely crazy.
Do you mean the bit before where it says “2017-2019 and potentially thereafter”?
Of course interviews are few and anonymous, and information is scarce: much of the premise of the report is that it’s hard to get access, and that anyone known to be giving testimony will be at risk of harm.
What you are doing is interpreting based on the report, and on other evidence - but the discussion earlier and elsewhere in this thread is that the UN report itself goes against the genocide claim, and that people just don’t read it. But it seems to me, if one is to simply read it, it’s clear the UN believes there were, and probably still are, serious and systematic human rights violations against the Uighurs.
As to ‘genocide’ as a term, I do think it’s fashionable - a buzz word - like ‘terrorism’, often bandied around when the author wants people to feel the thing is truly serious and unpardonable, but not always with good care as to the meaning. Hence it gets often argued about with respect to various events, even in cases when the main facts of the event is mostly undisputed.
“put them all in concentration camps and killed them”
At some point I feel like they’re self confessing their own thoughts about how to treat ethnic minorities and projecting onto china. You might have just been talking to a cryptofash.
I’ve been successful since I’m also Muslim and I can accuse them of islamophobia and only caring about Muslims when it’s convenient in Xinjiang but “bad optics” in Palestine.
How could there be a genocide if no one was killed?
I’ve confronted this one guy a few years ago when he started to indirectly accuse me of shirk/takfiri because I openly state that I’m a communist and hold pro-China/CPC views. He very quickly went for the “Uyghur genocide” and got angry at me refuting it. My rationale was the high-sped rail connecting Xinjiang to the rest of China, the improving trends of quality-of-life statistics among Uyghurs (increased pay, employment, literacy rate, electrification, clean water, mechanized agriculture, dropping of infant mortality, reduction of poverty, etc.), videos of Xinjiang’s culture, both from people who actually visited and from GCTN, the fact that Uyghurs are also Chinese citizens, multiple other sources refuting claims of anything resembling a genocide and of course, literally that the claims originated from a certain German preacher who’s also a Nazi sympathizer. Or simply enough that I’m from a country whose former and current heads of state have very openly stated that “Western powers have no right to make claims of the rest of the world”. South Africa and Namibia have also praised China’s efforts in Xinjiang as recently as early 2024.
I also did a little thought exercise and asked if it is “also” colonization for anyone to move from Berlin to Frankfurt, or from Tallinn to Narva. Easily answered no. Then of course the person in question still considers it colonization for someone to move from Guangzhou or Shanghai to Urumqi. The last question I asked if it is colonization for a person to move from say, Johannesburg to Cape Town - This was “difficult to answer”. Obviously it’s only “difficult” or “too political” because South Africa is no longer a West-aligned country.
Also he supposedly delegitimized much of the Palestinian solidarity movements solely because it was spearheaded by the South African Communist Party over 20 years and many pro-Palestinian groups and individuals in South Africa of all faiths and backgrounds are active members of the SACP, or at least supportive of them. Oh, he definitely agrees that Shitrael is committing a genocide against Palestine, but presumably doesn’t like it when communists (especially South Africans) wave Palestinian flags in the streets.
Funny that no one in South Africa ever called me “political” or “takfiri”.
