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I was listening to German news this morning, and you could hear the anchor drooling when they were speaking about Israel’s invasion of Lebanon. Like, holy fuck, can we stop pretending all of this is normal and okay?
Sorry this is totally OT, but is that place called Cafe Yourself?
It looks like it says Cafe youssef. Youssef is a fairly common last name.
The article about the invasion on Poland wasn’t any better.
The NYT published the proclamation of Hitler verbatim without criticizing it, and reported the German lie that Poland attacked first as fact.
Berlin, Friday, Sept. 1–Charging that Germany had been attacked, Chancellor Hitler at 5:11 o’clock this morning issued a proclamation to the army declaring that from now on force will be met with force and calling on the armed forces “to fulfill their duty to the end.”
The text of the proclamation reads:
*"To the defense forces:
The Polish nation refused my efforts for a peaceful regulation of neighborly relations; instead it has appealed to weapons. Germans in Poland are persecuted with a bloody terror and are driven from their homes. The series of border violations, which are unbearable to a great power, prove that the Poles no longer are willing to respect the German frontier. In order to put an end to this frantic activity no other means is left to me now than to meet force with force. German defense forces will carry on the battle for the honor of the living rights of the re- awakened German people with firm determination. I expect every German soldier, in view of the great tradition of eternal German soldiery, to do his duty until the end. Remember always in all situations you are the representatives of National Socialist Greater Germany! Long live our people and our Reich!Berlin, Sept. 1, 1939. Adolf Hitler"*
The commander-in-chief of the air force issued a decree effective immediately prohibiting the passage of any airplanes over German territory excepting those of the Reich air force or the government. This morning the naval authorities ordered all German mercantile ships in the Baltic Sea not to run to Danzig or Polish ports. Anti-air raid defenses were mobilized throughout the country early this morning. A formal declaration of war against Poland had not yet been declared up to 8 o’clock [3 A.M. New York time] this morning and the question of whether the two countries are in a state of active belligerency is still open.
Reichstag Will Meet Today Foreign correspondents at an official conference at the Reich Press Ministry at 8:30 o’clock [3:30 A.M. New York time] were told that they would receive every opportunity to facilitate the transmission of dispatches. Wireless stations have been instructed to speed up communications and the Ministry is installing additional batteries of telephones. The Reichstag has been summoned to meet at 10 o’clock [5 A.M. New York time] to receive a more formal declaration from Herr Hitler. The Hitler army order is interpreted as providing, for the time being, armed defense of the German frontiers against aggression. The action is also suspected of forcing international diplomatic action. The Germans announced that foreigners remain in Polish territory at their own risk. Flying over Polish territory as well as the maritime areas is forbidden by the German authorities and any violators will be shot down. When Herr Hitler made his announcement Berlin’s streets were still deserted except for the conventional early traffic, and there were no outward signs that the nation was finding itself in the first stages of war. The government area was completely deserted, and the two guards doing sentry duty in front of the Chancellery remained their usual mute symbol of authority. It was only when official placards containing the orders to the populace began to appear on the billboards that early workers became aware of the situation.
Border Clashes Increase Berlin, Friday, Sept. 1–An increasing number of border incidents involving shooting and mutual Polish-German casualties are reported by the German press and radio. The most serious is reported from Gleiwitz, a German city on the line where the southwestern portion of Poland meets the Reich. At 8 P.M., according to the semi-official news agency, a group of Polish insurrectionists forced an entrance into the Gleiwitz radio station, overpowering the watchmen and beating and generally mishandling the attendants. The Gleiwitz station was relaying a Breslau station’s program, which was broken off by the Poles. They proceeded to broadcast a prepared proclamation, partly in Polish and partly in German, announcing themselves as “the Polish Volunteer Corps of Upper Silesia speaking from the Polish station in Gleiwitz.” The city, they alleged, was in Polish hands. Gleiwitz’s surprised radio listeners notified the police, who halted the broadcast and exchanged fire with the insurrectionists, killing one and capturing the rest. The police are said to have discovered that the attackers were assisted by regular Polish troops. The Gleiwitz incident is alleged here to have been the signal “for a general attack by Polish franctireurs on German territory.” Two other points–Pitsachen, near Kreuzburg, and Hochlinden, northeast of Ratibor, both in the same vicinity as Gleiwitz, were the scenes of violations of the German boundary, it is claimed, with fighting at both places still under way.
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0901.html
Germans in Poland are persecuted with a bloody terror and are driven from their homes. The series of border violations, which are unbearable to a great power, prove that the Poles no longer are willing to respect the German frontier.
It’s so crazy to see most of the israeli propaganda literally being straight out of the Nazi playbook.
And Russians about Ukraine… we live in interesting times indeed
Let’s take a complex situation, make it worse, set it on fire, then spray the fire with gasoline from a fire hose. What’s the worst that could happen?
Well, it is obviously a special military operation to denazify and demilitarise the terrorist militia of other country, because it threatens peace and security. /s
Seriously, isn’t this like called a war declaration or something? If you bomb another country and move in troops and kill civilians?
Don’t forget, Germany had the right to defend itself.
Iean ya failed history of you think these things are even remotely similar
Hezbollah has been launching rockets daily. Hardly the same as a false flag fire
Are you attempting to justify genocide?
Yeah because Poland was launching missiles on German villages behind the border for a full year. Duh.
People hating IL so much that they just leave entire parts of the conflict out and then feel good about “doing the eight thing” are a part of the problem.
Uh… Israel was and still is committing genocide. And before that it was Apartheid and slower genocide. Setting aside the idea of refugees and how Lebanon is next after Gaza and the West Bank, every country in the world has a duty under international law to stop genocide and other crimes against humanity. The fact that Israel is committing genocide is, in and of itself, is a casus belli. This is the exact same thing the Allies get praised for in WWII. Also you’re phrasing it like Israel wasn’t responding each of these rockets with a lot more rockets, but even if we ignore all that: Israel made the conscious decision to escalate the conflict with Hezbollah with the pager attack and subsequent airstrikes.
The fact that Israel is committing genocide is, in and of itself, is a casus belli. This is the exact same thing the Allies get praised for in WWII.
No, unfortunately not really. The extent of the Holocaust was not uncovered until the Allies moved into Germany and took the concentration camps. Britain was at war due to their guarantee of Polish sovereignty, the US was at war due to Pearl Harbor, and Germany declaring war on them a few days later. Nobody went into WW2 to stop a genocide. China and the USSR were at war due to being invaded.
While some credit is given to stopping the Holocaust, certainly, that was largely a side effect of simply winning WW2.
While some credit is given to stopping the Holocaust, certainly, that was largely a side effect of simply winning WW2.
Yeah, I know. My phrasing was bad. I meant they’re being praised for fighting Germany and stopping thr Holocaust, not that they entered WWII to stop the Holocaust. I was trying to point out the ridiculousness of criticizing a country trying to stop genocide happening close to it.
This is the weakest slowest genocide ever then
I guess we shouldn’t have intervened in the whole Yugoslavia thing then, I mean, clearly we have to wait until like 40% of the ethnic minority is dead!
Uh… Did you not hear of that one Lancet study about how it’s likely for every documented death there are 5 undocumented deaths? Do you understand how the Gazan healthcare system has already collapsed and they’re unable to count the dead? Even just taking the current 41k and multiplying them by 5 gives 205 thousand, or more than 10% of Gaza’s population. All of Gaza is in famine, with North Gaza faring the worst, and Israel still refuses to let aid in. How do you call 10% of the population (already more than all Hamas members) dying anything other than a genocide?
Can’t be a genocide, if it’s not effective amirite? /s
Just like how israel bombed Gaza for 20 years straight and then Hamas a performed a limited ground operation.
I’m sorry, but “limited ground operation” is the same type of shadowy bullshit language as calling the genocide in Gaza a “strategic operation”.
That’s the point.
Shoot, you’re right. I’ve seen so many stupid takes in this conflict it has made me dumb.
I agree completely that Hezbollah makes up a huge problem, and after their involvement in Syria there’s not a hint of legitimacy left in the organization if there ever was any.
But one would do well that to remember their origins: They are what’s left of the resistance from the last time Israel invaded Lebanon. So that’s what a great fucking success that was.
And Hezbollah are not Lebanon. They control territory, and they need to be fought, but this in not how one fights terrorist organizations. This is how you create terrorist organizations. Which is exactly what Israel did the last time they invaded.
Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.
Since when is Hizbollah Palestine?
I admit, I thought I was in a different thread.
Lebanese have the right to defend themselves, and Palestinians.
The iron dome is defense. Actively bombing outside of ones borders, in my opinion, is fucked up, no matter what “side.” It’s like all these country’s leaders are acting off PTSD responses and escalating more and more, no one attempting to deescalate. Idk what the answer is, honestly.
My ridiculous attempt to make light of the situation is to childishly wish Mr. Rogers were still alive to help us all get through this.
No, actually, occupiers have no right to defend themselves.
you know, bomber Harris famously said: “The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation.”
but to the IDF? this is no mere delusion, they do have a guarantee that they won’t be bombed, because they have the iron dome, they can do what they want.
so I’ll pass on the notion that iron dome being “defensive” somehow stops its existence from emboldening the vile actions of the literal terrorist Regime that is the current Israeli government (yes, several top ministers of the Israeli government are internationally wanted terrorists, only taken off said lists because they became part of an official government)
I’m really sick of hearing Americans of all people, and Westerners in general trying to moralize about invasions and war.
Tu quoque fallacy
Funny. I don’t remember Poland firing ballistic missiles into Germany before the invasion.
But this is definitely the same thing as Germany invading Poland /s
I don’t think anyone is making the point that it’s literally the exact same thing.
But what we’re witnessing is that Israel can bomb a civilian population to rubble for months and months, and all the intensional community can stutter out is that they “have a right to defend themselves”.
Now they are bombing a foreign capital and sending in ground troops to their neighbouring country to fight off a militia that they themselves are responsible for creating by invading in the past, and we know exactly what the chorus will be. Right to defend themselves.
We will see our Lebanese friends and their families murdered, all for Israel’s right to defend themselves.
In Germany, the line was that they would stop at Poland. People make up different excuses for different atrocities.
I think a lot of people are rightfully fucking tired of excuses, and that’s the point. Not that it’s literally the same thing.
Yes they are. Look at the post. They are quite literally (in the words true meaning) making that point.
The person who first said “Germany has the right to defend themselves” was making a fairly nuanced point. That is, you can be the aggressor and still of course retain the right to defend yourself. Claiming “X has the right to defend itself!” is a deflective statement meant to justify disproportionate violence as we’ve seen in Gaza and now the West Bank.
Hezbolla is not Lebanon or its government. It’s not a declaration of war if the country (its official government) isn’t objecting to the entry
Weird considering all of the buildings in Beirut, the capital of Lebanon, that Israel is destroying.
That’s an interesting take. I think you should ideally be invited before your military march into a foreign country and start bombing in order to claim it’s not an invasion. It’s not one of those things you can assume you have permission to do until the country you’re invading starts fighting back.
Lebanon is not Hezbolla. But the bombs are falling in Lebanon, and it is Lebanese civilians that are being killed and displaced. They are invading Lebanon,.
That Lebanon hardly has a government to speak of and is doing awfully already does not mean you can just rightfully bomb it. What the fuck.
That’s literally the entire post. Gaslight harder
The NY Times had no problem calling it an invasion when Ukraine did it to Russia (also after years of being bombed by Russia).
Because Ukrainians are white, so they’re more sympathetic!
Then that would have been a better comparison, wouldnt it? But they are comparing it to the NAZIS!
I don’t have the energy to explain why this is wrong on every single kneejerk post on this site. But safe to say it’s not applicable with even the slightest thought of the subjects in question.
Jews where kicked out of their homeland by force, by both Christians and Muslims. Muslims hated jews a long time before this conflict arose. Much like the nazis did, but in their case its a religious schism more than a racial one.
For all the love and understanding that the Muslim community spouts, they wont even accept palestinians as refugees. A Palestinian refugee spoke about their treatment by both hamas and Egypt on Swedish national news saying “we have never been as poorly treated as we were by the Egyptian authorities”
That’s not the reality of the origins of Zionism, you are conflating Zionism with Judaism, which are 2 very different things. Christian nations have been far more antisemitic historically than Muslim nations. Adi Callai, an Israeli, does a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized (see 29:01) by Zionism during its history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.
Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
- The Transfer Committee, and the JNF Ethnic Cleansing, which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate before the Nakba
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
State violence – official and otherwise – is part and parcel of Israel’s apartheid regime, which aims to create a Jewish-only space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. The regime treats land as a resource designed to serve the Jewish public, and accordingly uses it almost exclusively to develop and expand existing Jewish residential communities and to build new ones. At the same time, the regime fragments Palestinian space, dispossesses Palestinians of their land and relegates them to living in small, over-populated enclaves.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Good Books on the History
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Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
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The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
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A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
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The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
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The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
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The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
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10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
Nice infodump. But it doesnt answer why other islamic countries treat Palestinian refugees like means to an end.
Because they’re capitalists before they’re muslims. Opportunity and capitalists, name a more iconic duo.
That’s much more related to Neo-colonialism and US dominance in the region. Client States of the US will support US interests, which includes Israel’s interests
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_policy_in_the_Middle_East
You’re right. In this analogy Germany entered Poland 40 years ago and there was no WWII to make them cut out their bullshit.
*you don’t remember Poland sending rockets into illegally occupied Poland before the invasion.
Fixed that for you
Yes 🙄 Lemmy is so fucked in this regard.
Just got to love that you get downvoted for staying stating something THIS obvious. People think these rockets are toys or outright forget they exist.
It almost makes you wonder why they would send rockets into the illegally occupied West Bank.
Oh well, I’m sure its just because they’re racist against Jewish people and the event happened in a vaccume.
Yes, that is what they are. Absolutely. They wish all the Jews were dead. That is what they learn from childhood on. Hamas even had that in their constitution(!) until recently.
That does not mean that things happen in a vacuum, it is a hate spiral that neither side alone can stop and working together is something both sides do not want. What a terrible situation.
I mean, if you lived somewhere, and an entire demographic of people moved in, claimed the land as the birthright of their religion, and started murdering your family, you might develop some ideas about what kind of people belong to that religion. Zionism is an insidious cancer.
TIL that if you hate your neighbors for killing and stealing the land of your compatriots, you’re racist. As I allude to, they have a very legitimate reason to hate Israel but it gets dismissed as just being racist against all Jews, without a hint of irony.
They can’t work together because one side wants to break international law and the other side tries to resist them. They would be happy to work together. Its just that you won’t get hamas or hezbollah working with Israel on how to illegally steal and colonise land from their neighbours. That would be silly.
