EDIT: I’m interested in how a free Palestine would play out in terms of what that would mean for women, gays, children, people of non-muslim religions, in terms of personal freedoms, etc. For the average citizen/denizen what would that look like?
I’m interested in how a free Palestine would play out in terms of what that would mean for women, gays, children, people of non-muslim religions, in terms of personal freedoms, etc.
I think this is a ludicrously speculative question given the current state of things, and possibly a leading one. It smells like imperial core feigned human rights concern for the purposes of manufacturing consent. That’s the reason we hear about Palestinian human rights from Western governments, human rights NGOs, and corporate media; and therefore why they’re salient in the public discourse. It’s propaganda. Citations Needed podcast: The Human Rights Concern Troll Industrial Complex
I’m interested in how a free Palestine would play out in terms of what that would mean for women, gays, children, people of non-muslim religions, in terms of personal freedoms, etc. For the average citizen/denizen what would that look like?
Well the future doens’t permit accurate predictions.
Ahmad Yusuf, the deputy foreign minister of Hamas, said in 2010 that he wanted a country like Turkey, not like the Taliban:
According to Yusuf, who said he is writing a book called “Erdoğan and a New Strategic Vision,” the Taliban is “opposed to everything,” including education and women’s rights. “Erdoğan’s model, on the other hand, is liberal. It is a model that dares to take responsibility and change things and establishes good relations between the religious and secular elements of society,” he said. “It is a model that works for democracy and human rights, and supports an open society. That is what we want.”
inb4 Woids saying Erdoğan isn’t liberal enough for them: homosexuality is not criminalised in Turkey, Bülent Ersoy is a major celebrity.
I’m not praising Turkey, I’d see Erdoğan gone if I could, I’m just getting some facts out b4 Woids say Turkey is Muslim therefore intolerant. It has freedom of religion too.
Also worth mentioning that Ahmad Yusuf is one politician among many, expressing one possible vision for the future of Palestine. There are other political currents swirling internally.
Thats a very interesting case example. I will have to learn more about Turkey, altho it seems like the Democratic part is doing a lot of heavy lifting relative to what I’ve heard about Turkey being like Hungary in terms of democratic realities. It is impressive that they don’t have the usual antihomosexuality laws and hangups other Muslim nations have.
Then again, they probably couldn’t be part of EU with something like that on the books, no?
Then again, they probably couldn’t be part of EU with something like that on the books, no?
It’s got nothing to do with the EU because it goes back hundreds of years. Ireland joined the EEC 21 years before legalising the gay.
the usual antihomosexuality laws and hangups other Muslim nations have.
This is overstated by liberals who want to create a “West = pro-gay”, “Rest = anti-gay” narrative
I’m not sure it has ever been true that the Woids love gays and the Muslims hate them.
Scholars wrote “Persian literature is essentially a homosexual literature”
Contemporary to this, the Brits are doing Oscar Wilde to death for sodomy. And the Ottomans were gaying it up, creating the modern idea of a Turkish Bathhouse. And which Empire governed Palestine until 1917? And which Empire took it over after that?
It was the British who passed anti-gay laws in Palestine, it having been legal under Muslim rulers.
Don’t buy into the liberal idea that Muslim=anti-gay. Have you ever been to Afghanistan? Gayest culture I’ve ever seen.
Thanks, I appreciate the correction. Good to know for real
what that would mean for women, gays, children, people of non-muslim religions, in terms of personal freedoms, etc
So the wonderful thing about anti-colonial movements is that even if they start right wing they have to get more left wing as time progresses, simply due to the power dynamics that are created through the process of throwing out the imperialists. Once you stop foreign oppression, you have a grassroots mass of militant and armed revolutionaries that you’re accountable to and who get upset when you try to reproduce the same economic system. You also are tied at the hip to them as the imperialists seek a return to an old system.
This includes movements where there is no significant communist presence, but it happens faster when there are communists.
Luckily, the PLFP is the second biggest party represented in the Palestinian joint operations room and have significant military and political power, meaning that in Palestine it probably will take a lot less time to materialize.
So the wonderful thing about anti-colonial movements is that even if they start right wing they have to get more left wing as time progresses, simply due to the power dynamics that are created through the process of throwing out the imperialists.
This is a bizarre claim.
Congo got more right-wing shortly after independence. So did Tanzania.
Ireland fought a civil war against its anti-colonial left to ensure a right-wing state.
India is now very right wing after independence.
You’re stating this like some sort of rule of history.
You’re describing neo-colonial regimes that werent able to fully leave the imperialist economic structure.
Compare India to Cuba on women’s and lgbt rights
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With what borders? Your insinuating the zionist entity would still exist how is it possible for palestine to be free, and for their lands to still be occupied by the zionists at the same time?
If you want a true path to a free palestine ill give it to you.
Step 1: Stop the genocide. The israeli state stops their agression and stops killing innocents. A full ceasefire.
Step 2: Demilitarization, and international intervention. The israelis, and hamas surrender their weapons, and send their soldiers home as an international UN peacekeeping force enters the region to maintain peace. Led by South Africa preferably. Freedom of movement is granted to all people in the territories, and equal citizenship is granted to all palestinians, and israelis in the unified levant territory state. The international community would need to pour humanitarian aid into the country to stabilize it at this point.
Step 3: A civilian governemnt is elected by the unified electorate of israelis, and palestinians including the millions of displaced palestinians currently in places like jordan who would be allowed to return home if they chose to.
Step 4: reconciliation. The new civilian government must decide what to do with the stolen property and homes. Most likely many zionists would flee the nation back to where they came from much like the whites in south africa did, but if they chose to stay then youd have to make sure anyone whose family had lands stolen either got those lands or equivalent lands back, and zionists would have to give up what they stole. In a democratic situation palestinians outnumber settlers so theyd dominate the new government, and zionist policies would be a non-starter.
Step 5: Trials. You would need a nurenburg style trial for the war criminals who orchestrated the genocides against palestinians. Justice would be needed. Altho i imagine many zionist criminals would try to flee to the US, or Germany.
Step 6: peace? I think that israelis who are ok with the freedom and liberation of palestinians and who chose to stay would find themselves welcomed by palestinians in this new Palestine, and while old wounds would take time to heal i do think given proper policy, and a end to the fighting most people would just want to rebuild, and live in peace. The new civilian government at this point could begin to form a new defensive military, and once it was able to secure its own borders the UN forces could withdraw.
This process would take decades probably, and would require the United States to step in and force Israel to stop its agression as Israel is a protectorate of the USA. Its a very unlikely scenario, but it is the only peaceful solution. To end the occupation, and the genocide.
It depends on how that country is formed, and what happens to Jerusalem.
If Israel withdraws from west bank and Gaza, and truly allows them to be a sovereign state(s), with their own navy, air force, ground force, then the US would step in via the UAE. I would also guess that they will get lots of money coming in from other Arab governments because they all want influence in Palestine, in addition to money from Arabs as people.
In terms of government, if elections are held I assume Hamas would win (in Gaza and wb). In which case countries like Egypt will start being less friendly towards Hamas than they are right now, because they can be seen as a viable government. The reason Egyptian government would dislike Hamas is because they are a spin-off of the brotherhood, which the sisi couped in order to gain power. Generally, Egyptian government is very afraid of the brotherhood and will root them out wherever possible because they are often the only party (other than police and military) that may be in a position to rule the country.
In terms of long term economy and how the government would function I have no idea. Hamas controls an area the size of a small town, and the Palestinian authority has no real autonomy, its not even allowed to collect taxes. My guess tho is that it will resemble south Africa in terms of infrastructure (garbage).
I don’t think it will collapse like Libya and be run by criminals, but it won’t be as prosperous and safe as many of the Gulf countries.
Basically I’m talking out of my ass, there’s really no way to know
Obviously similar to neighboring countries like Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan.
Hint: It is obvious you are trying to propagandize in favor of Israel. No, no possible answer to your question justifies anything Israel has been doing.
lists four completely different countries
refuses to elaborate
I think its fair to ask an objective “what would a free Palestine look like”
I’m interested in what life would be like for folks there.
Young people seem so different when they don’t have a physical or emotional gun to their back, I actually entertain the idea that young Palestinians (with aid and world collaboration) could work towards—I dunno, like Pakistan or something. I don’t know a lot about all the geopolitics but Pakistan is seperate from India, thats an achievement that seems similar
It’s not a success. Two-state solution is a failure. Be it India-Pakistan, East-West Germany, North-South Korea or Sudan-South Sudan.
As someone from India, the two-state solution for India-Pakistan was a massive disaster. One of the worst man-made catastrophe. Rape, murder and violence between different ethnic groups, it was horrible. People were forcibly displaced to the other side of the country, leaving behind their ancestral village and belongings. This destroyed their culture and their language, stripped their identity.
These states were divided to satisfy the egoes of the two major political dynasts, Nehru and Jinnah, and as typical of pretend-socialist liberals, they were supported by the Hindu Mahasabha and the All India Muslim league.
Pakistan forced the use of Urdu, an Indian language, because their native languages had Devanagari-resembling script, and for that strong Muslim identity they went for a language with a Farsi script… except that the language was Khadi Boli (a language from UP) with borrowed Farsi words.
Well, what about India? They went ballistic sub-nationalist. State majoritarians forced language on vulnerable groups, including mine (obligatory middle-finger to the Basel Mission and Kannada chauvinists).
Later, Pakistan’s ethnic cleansing and rape of Bengalis, especially Hindus in East Pakistan (East Bengal) backfired, and the country broke into three. Cut to 2024, the people of Kashmir suffer even to this day.
If only the Indian communists from the HSRA had not been betrayed by the INC, a greater India with none of the communal B.S. would have existed. There would have been no Hindutva or Deobandi extremists jump around and squirming like cockroaches. And we have two countries armed to the brim with nuclear weapons.
Better than the blockade in Gaza and the apartheid system in the West Bank they’ve been living under for the last decades.
I don’t think it would be a model in terms of human rights, doesn’t make Israel’s actions any better.
Palestine
Which one, the west bank or Gaza?
Or do you think each one will get an autonomy in almost every aspect, but will still be part of the same state?
at least I’m not the only one thinking that
Edited post, what other different arab nation?
Economically, somewhere between Qatar and Lebanon. Palestine’s sea near Gaza has a rich source of oil. They also allow ships to cross through, which is a nice source of income. Culturally, they probably have something in common with the Lebanese and Egyptians.
Thanks for this answer specifically ;) I have to remember it all makes me a better thinker (“i’m in my hapoy place”-style)
Depends on the starting conditions.
There are two main “forces” at play here:
Hamas, which is an fundamentalist, religious and military organization backed by Iran. If they were to gain power in a Palestinian state, it would look something like Hezbollah controlled areas in Lebanon. So… not good.
Fatah, on the other hand, is a (relatively) secular organization that’s in good relations with western countries. If they were to gain power, Palestine would be more open to western influence, and will probably treat women, secular people and minorities better. This version of Palestine will probably be the most pro-western Arab state, so it might be more influenced by western values more than other Arab states. Of course, in the mid- or long run it’s possible an extremist power will rise regardless of western backing (ex. Iran).
Assuming a you’re talking about the near future, which organization will have control largely depends on if Hamas would exist. If so, they’ll probably get the credit for a recognized state due to their “resistance”. Then again, it’s very possible one of the conditions for a universally recognized state will be the elimination of Hamas as a political (and obviously military) force.
I’m kinda ignoring the “including Israel” part of your question, as Israel would absolutely not accept any version of Palestine with Hamas.
fatah is secular or a better start? fatah hooked up with putin. fatah can go die right away.
Yes, Fatah is a relatively secular organization. And is absolutely a better start than Hamas.
You should to realign your metrics for the middle east if you think If “hooking up with Putin” is the worst thing someone can do there.
i think it was a chance wasted by palestine…again…by choice…of their leaders. very sad.
Probably a bit like a combo of Lebanon and Jordan, just my guess. Both have diverse populations and balance modernity with tradition. Of course, it all depends on how they decide to structure their society and government.
Big part of Palestinians are Christian and their doing fine. Homosexuality is currently not legal and we don’t know if independent Palestine would have fixed it on not because Israel forbids them from holding elections. Same applies to most other issues, but one thing is for sure that they will have better agriculture and trade and more opportunities as a free country. Israel is essentially blockading Gaza and West Bank gets double tariffs and no water for farming.
Hamas stops Gaza having elections.
The West Bank has no water? If they have money to fire a thousand rockets a month at Israel, why not spend some of that on the water infrastructure?
West Bank and Gaza are separate governments. Israel made a contract with Jordan Valley farmers to get their water rights in exchange for a steady water supply that they never delivered. Then after a while because they couldn’t farm without water they told them “your land is unused so we’re going to use it for a settlement”.
There is water in the West Bank but it’s not reliable since Israelis need to water their crops first.
They would definitely have some kind of mandatory military service instituted. I don’t think they would ever trust their Zionist neighbors.
Culturally and economically speaking, it would be very similar to Lebanon or Syria in my opinion.
Defensive tho or offensive?
According to Israel, those terror words mean the same thing.
Kind of like how they had the gall to use the phrase ‘deescalation through escalation’
Take your pick lol. Israel did settle on their land in the first place. They’ll probably be a good chunk of Palestinians on both sides of that question. Some who just want to finally enjoy peace and freedom. And some who want to make sure that what they’ve gone through for the past 70+ years never happens again. No one that is not Palestinian can fault either of those 2 opinions.
EDIT: I’m interested in how a free Palestine would play out in terms of what that would mean for women, gays, children, people of non-muslim religions, in terms of personal freedoms, etc.
The basis of this question is Zionist because it implies things would get worse for gay Palestinians, Palestinian women, and non-Muslim Palestinians. All of these populations are currently either under military occupation or in exile, banned from entering any of historic Palestine. They may experience oppression or marginalisation based on these identities, but all of them additionally are under Zionism’s boot as Palestinians. When they are no longer oppressed for being Palestinian, it will be much easier for them to seek liberation along the other lines they are oppressed, such as gender, sexuality, and religion.
As for religion, some Palestinian parties are specifically Islamic, some are explicitly secular. It would be hard to say, but right now we are seeing very strong unity between the different Palestinian factions, including e.g. explicitly Islamic factions strongly condemning the attacks on Palestinian churches. Hamas, an Islamic party, is in alliance with the PFLP, which was founded by a Palestinian Christian and is explicitly secular. From what I can see, religion doesn’t seem to be a hugely dividing line among the Palestinian factions, and I hope that will continue to be the case when Palestinians begin the process of recovering from Zionism and establishing a long-term state.
In any case, Hamas, one of the most influential explicitly Islamic Palestinian factions, is also explicitly supportive of religious tolerance in its charter, and envisions a Palestinian state in which people are free to practise their own religions. I am hopeful that the current religious unity we can see will continue after the fall of Israel.
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