There are plenty of multiplayer games I adore. However, it seems like every community has these “brain dead”, patronizing, or out right toxic elements that are just nasty. I’d rather debate politics than make suggestions in some gaming communities because the responses are just so … annoying.
As an example, I once dared to suggest that a game developer implement a mode to prevent crouched status from rendering on death cams so that players that are bothered by t-bagging could avoid it (after a match where a friend rage quit because someone just kept head shotting him – possibly with cheats – and then t-bagging). This post got tons of hate, and like -50 upvotes on reddit because of course someone should be forced to watch someone t-bag them.
Another example on a official game forum… I made a forum post suggesting Bungie use Mastodon (or really just something else being my intent)… The response I got was some positivity but mostly just “lol nobody uses that sweetie” and other patronizing comments.
Meanwhile studios themselves often seem to be filled with developers that understand this stuff is a problem, and the lack of sportsmanship (or generally civilized attitudes) does push away players. It just doesn’t make sense to me that no studio is saying “get lost” to these elements or implementing anti-toxicity features. I just want to play games with nice normal people, is that really so much to ask?
I hate to say it but many people play multiplayer games because it gives them the ability to be complete cunts to others with zero possibility of any real repercussions.
That is the draw.
Behaviours that would get you thrown out of a public space or banned from a group d&d session or punched in the face can be repeated again and again in online gaming.
The same people that like to troll spaces like this are the same people who only play multiplayer games to grief others.
It is an often repeated quote, to the point it has become trite but it is true:
Some people just want to watch the world burn
Anonymity + Audience = Assholes.
Yep. Penny arcade did a great comic on this almost 20 years ago.
The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory
Which was:
Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad
Normal Person - Consequences + Audience = Total Fuckwad
Which is a perfect explanation for Twitter both before and after EM took over.
Anyway, her suggestion looked like this:
Normal Person - Consequences + Audience = Total Fuckwad
which adjusts Anonymity toward its functional result. For some reason, and I don’t know why, the notion of subtraction, of negation, is much more optimistic that our construction because it implies that you can add something and change it. The underlying assertion is that we can fix this with technology, which, again, you know, engineers. Our conversations tend to be interesting.
Very cool when it’s put like that.
That’s… depressing but I could easily see it…
Still, I find it hard to believe that’s the majority. I remember days when it wasn’t as bad as it’s gotten. Like is it so many people that it would truly hurt profits that much vs what it could bring (there was a point where my friends and I almost entirely stopped playing online games because these people were just making it an annoying experience instead of a fun one; I can’t imagine I’m in the only group of friends that experienced that/had folks that had to take a break).
I’d really love it if someone who works for one of these bigger studios (even anonymously) said why seemingly no time is spent on really trying to just expel toxic players like would be done in real life (in the various examples you gave).
Edit: My true pipedream would be that there’s some next level person (senior dev, staff software engineer, product owner) at one of these studios lurking that goes “you know what you have a point” and actually does something about this 😅
It is not the majority but:
1: The angry cunts drive away the players that just want to have fun, so they can soon dominate a space and turn a game toxic is a short time.
2: People remember the bad interactions. It you play ten games in a session and only one is filled with toxic arseholes…Guess which game you will remember the next day.
3: Once the toxic shitheads find a game that is allowing their behaviour to continue and not dropping the ban hammer on them, they will keep coming back and invite their toxic mates to join the fun.
I’m not sure I even regard this as a developer studios responsibility.
What has the game to do with how it’s players behave? Your teebagging example is great for this: You seek a technical solution for a behavioural problem of the player base? That’s a bit too far.
I’m pretty sure I know the players you describe. I’ve played against them, I’ve played with them and talked to them. I’ve let them get to me and ragequit. They are clearly cunts and bullies. Not much you can do about them.
Change what is in your control: Play in a good state of mind where this stuff does not get to you (not when you’re tired after work). Turn off voice comms. Don’t let it get to you. Worst thing you can do to a troll is ignore them.
Not much you can do about them.
Most of the games have ignore/mute. I’ve learned to automatically block anyone at the first sign of mild toxicity, so I don’t have to see the rest and have it ruin my experience. I’m never going to see the people again anyway, so there’s no reason to give them the benefit of a doubt, and by blocking them early I can play in peace and still have fun.
That’s probably the best way to do it.
I’m not sure I even regard this as a developer studios responsibility.
I mean, they’re the ones running the servers and ultimately providing admittance. There always going to be “bad people” unless owners of establishments actually exclude them (or as I’ve suggested – since this is an imaginary world – just take away their ability to be a jerk in said world).
Change what is in your control: Play in a good state of mind where this stuff does not get to you (not when you’re tired after work). Turn off voice comms. Don’t let it get to you. Worst thing you can do to a troll is ignore them.
Definitely good advice. Part of it is genuinely just friends too though. Like this isn’t “my friend”, this is my friend (though that’s not to say I enjoy this crap either)… and sometimes it’s hard to gage their mental state, or even though they’re in a bad mood, I’d really like to do something more challenging … and of course they get t-bagged or abused on comms … and then everybody is having a bad time.
I wish I had access to these game’s source code… then the whole thing would be in my control ☺️
Bro, gaming communities are a reflection of internet communities at large.
The only common thing gaming strangers have is the game. The rest? They could be just about anybody you see on the streets. And the streets ia filled with assholes.
Yes, but the type of game and the interactions in it highly influence the way players act with each other. Look at the way Stardew Valley players and communities are, for example, and then look at the League of Legends one. Incredibly different, simply because the games focus on different things. Competition brings out the worst in people, especially online, and with young (and sometimes old) players who don’t have the tools to cope with frustration, toxicity snowballs and turns everybody sour.
For a while now, I’ve been asking one simple question with a way I think could help reduce, if not eliminate, toxicity from players:
How do you gamify good sportsmanship?
If you can actually gamify and incentivize good sportsmanship in a tangible, meaningful way, it could do a lot to help with the crap commonly seen/heard in video game chats and forums.
It’s not impossible, it’s just not profitable. In most online games cosmetics are quite important. And you can easily make it that the only way to get them is by having a high community score or whatever you wanna call it. And even make it so that if your score drops, you lose access to them. There will still be assholes using the default model, sure, but I’m pretty sure most people will be going out of their way to be nice if there’s something in it for them. And after a while of forcing yourself to do something it becomes habit. And that may be a way to teach players to be nice. Dunno, just a thought
You can still profit and coax people into behaving better at the same time. Most stuff you pay for; but have some exclusive things for getting enough good sport points. And to keep up their good behaviour, they will lose points for bad behavior and can have those items taken away from them if they fall below the points needed to have them in the first place.
Or hell; even lose your paid for items. Like taking away a child’s toy if they misbehave. This is basically what a ban is anyway.
My only issue with this is that the only current and reliable way to get these points on your record would be to take the word of other players making reports. You could always get enough friends to circle jerk each other for good guy points, the same way you can bully players now with bad behavior reports.
I don’t think a paternal mindset is a good way to approach this, personally. It usually has more to do with feeling like you are in a position of authority and providing the gratification of passing judgment on the behavior of others, while not actually resolving the issue.
Nah, players won’t accept the latter, as for the former, yeah, except most games I’ve played don’t give cool cosmetics for “free” like that. Cause if the free ones are just as cool as the paid ones, fewer people will pay, and they don’t like that. The most sought after ones are always the store ones or the 1% content ones
But yeah, I’d love it if a game actually did that
I think that’s a very interesting question! I don’t have a good answer. In real life, this onus is on coaches, organizers, etc… so it’s always seemed like something that moderators should just need to actually do.
What bothers me about this with video games is that I know as a programmer, programmers are capable of just shutting people down when they do obviously disrespectful things like t-bagging, and in games that have explicit taunts… they’re perfectly capable of just giving players an option to disable taunts… but they don’t.
It’s kind of like chat filters, we don’t have to sanitize it for everybody, but there should be an option.
if youre really interested in the idea of gaminfying good sportsmanship, I think the Deep Rock Galactic community would be the best place to start. it’s not devoid of toxicity, but it has arguably the least amount of it out of any other online game. I think the devs mentioned they think a lot of it has to do with things like having a solute/celebrate button (hence why all DRG fans will communicate via yelling “ROCK AND STONE!”), although being a co-op non-vs game helps I’m sure.
I’ve generally been pretty happy with the Hunt Showdown community (part of what I think helps there is stopping to t-bag someone can easily result in you getting shot and losing a match, part of it is the dead person can’t see you t-bag, part of it is it’s an older crowd).
I also mostly stick to PvE destiny (i.e. avoid the PvP portion)… I’m largely fine, it’s just when I forget and go into one of these areas I tried to forget about I’m like “why is this still a problem? 🙃”
Taunting animations and t-bagging are pretty mild and I’ve always considered them in the realm of playful trash talk in the vein of things like “you’re going down, bro!” If they’re also talking massive shit while doing it, that’s a different story.
I think it’s a bit more disrespectful than “you’re going down, bro!” But typically when I’m thinking of this, I’m thinking of situations where the person has like a 10-0 KDR vs the person and is either clearly just way better or cheating and t-bags after every kill. It’s completely classless at that point.
Like, if it’s a fairly even match and occasional … sure it’s not worse, but when it’s mixed with outright domination (or as you said talking massive shit) it’s more than that.
In either case… it’s just so unnecessary.
In your personal judgment and opinion.
Programmers of AAA titles are subject to the decision of managers.
But more to your point: player upvoting/downvoting would maybe help solve this issue. The assholes will still be in the game rooms, but then you can avoid them. Like when you see a lemmy comment with -10, you just skip it.
It’s the question.
Lately I’ve been thinking about how you’d design a racing sim that rewards and gamifies clean racing but the basic answer is that you’d have to set it in world so different from our autoracing history and technology that you’d lose 75% of your player base who are mostly interested in real cars (the same way FIFA games appeal to people who want the real players, and don’t actually care about the game design of football).
On PS5 there’s platform native ‘Accolades’ where you can rate the people you’ve played with, but Bruce I never play the kinds of games that they’re designed for I have no idea if they’re used or how they even work. The point being though even Sony were trying to approach this topic at an OS/ecosystem level.
That will never happen. How do you gamify YouTube comments?
I think a rating system would work better - sort of upvotes, but for gamers or game match rooms.
“Should I join this game? Oy, -7 points. Nope. What about this one? 4 points. Hm, maybe. Let’s see the list of players. There are three with less than -5. Those are cunts. Nope. And this one? 57 points! Players above 2 points. Let’s go!”
That sounds very interesting! Any concrete ideas what that might be or even implemented examples?
The toughest thing is getting reliable feedback. Steam and CSGO both have a system where you can give accolades to other players, which is a good base. But it’s not ideal, imo, because it can be abused just like reporting bad behavior can. Personally I can’t think of any way to automate giving rewards for good behaviour, because other than AI and with dubious privacy issues, there isn’t a good way to gauge good behavior, since most of it is simply how people talk to each other, and not necessarily how they play the game.
Now I recall League of Legends, which I quit playing a year ago or so. I think after each match, you were prompted to give a positive rating about another player. The player with the most approvals got highlighted in the post-match screen, and maybe there was like a special player border for the loading screen of the next match.
Maybe that’s a good idea; don’t focus on detecting bad behaviour, but give ways to reward good behaviour.
Not saying LoL’s approach is the way to go. It was mostly focused on game-relevant deeds, and only partially on social behaviour.
A lot of games have it. I’ve also at several occasions received harrasment through DMs for not giving someone the good behaviour reward.
One obvious solution is to do what competitive sports do: hire a referee. I could imagine hardcore players paying a little extra per match to hire a referee and essentially guarantee fair play. Some players might want to make a little extra cash while still being involved in a game they enjoy.
Might be a tough proposition though, since it would be hard to scale to large online communities. Maybe with good enough tools, refs could manage multiple matches at a time.
The cheaper solution that some games already do is allow players to report toxic behavior and then a moderator will play back the logs and see if the report is legitimate.
Meh. Restarted a rant three times now.
I’ll leave it at this.
Online sportsmanship is dead. There’s zero consequence for being a direct cunt online. And reporting systems rarely report back if any action is taken against a player you reported.
Doing a mythic+3 in WoW? Get kicked over your spec because it’s not the best one, even though the two friends you’re bringing cleared all +15s.
Lost a clutch game? “Ggez” from the enemy team
Ruining it for the other team is part of the game and I think that’s horrible.
I’d there’s no “society”/community to give consequences to your actions, there’s no incentive to get them to stop
It’s a direct consequence of matchmaking (and in League of Legends specifically also of terrible game design). If you were to play with the same, smaller set of people every time this behavior wouldn’t happen as often because people would simply start telling you you’re a dick. In matchmaking there are no consequences as the chance you’ll ever play the same opponent again before they forgot about you is minimal.
I found game communities on reeedit to be fairly annoying for similar reasons. Even for games where the community at large is fairly positive, there was a lot of random downvoting of topics and comments for no reason but bitterness or disapproval. A sizable and vocal minority seemed to come to the subs just to complain about the game, like “game is dead!” or “this update sucks!” or “they’re going to close the servers, nobody plays!”. There was one person who started really annoying me with their constant doom and bitterness in every single thread every day - like, we LIKE this game, stop trying to make us feel bad about it - so I googled their name. Like, do they play other games? Stream on Twitch? I found their public Steam profile with the same distinctive name as the reddit account. According to the achievements they hadn’t even played the game they complained about every day long enough to get the most basic achievments (reach level 20…). I pointed that out on the sub and someone told me I was “STALKING”. Yeah, one google search and looking at a public Steam profile… that’s stalking.
That’s crazy! I can’t understand why someone would spend all that time on a game they’ve barely played.
Like, I can get regularly giving constructive criticism/trying to bring light to an issue … but to just comment stuff like that is so annoying.
You’re playing competitive games with primarily teenagers and young adults. They are always gonna be toxic and very few companies are willing to dedicate a ton of resources towards content moderation. There are big games that do, like Overwatch, so if it’s a problem for you then you should either only play those games, or play games that don’t attract the young toxic crowds as much.
And honestly asking for a feature to hide your delicate eyes from teabagging in an FPS is a bit much.
Matchmaking systems basically make players anonymous. There’s basically no incentive not to be an ass, because after a match players may never see each other again, or if they do they won’t recognise each other.
While toxicity has always been an issue, it was less of a problem when multiplayer was more community-driven. I remember playing TF2 in local servers, and the thing that kept the worst toxicity in check was that people recognised each other. Regulars gained reputation with other regulars, which held value. And if someone was particularly toxic, they’d get banned.
Yeah that’s very fair; I definitely miss when I could run my own servers for big games and just axe anyone who didn’t behave
The simple answer is that community moderation takes a human labor force, the cost of which is substantial and conflicts with the profit motive of the companies involved. There’s just no financial incentive to clean things up beyond a threshold that would result in lawsuits or reputational damage. Because this kind of “toxic” behavior is becoming more normalized, and typically doesn’t rise to a liability, you’re not going to see most companies address it. This is why it has become customary for online gamers to have fucked your mother last night.
It’s also hard to draw a line between blunt and rude, toxic and a honest, negative opinion. Once you start moderating, people expect some fairness and transparency. Or pretend so. They will complain about the moderation, play the system, troll. A company might easily get more shit for trying than for doing nothing, which is the norm.
Yeah, there is no perfect solution to this kind of behavior, but I’m familiar with this kind of toeing the line, too. Crying censorship to try to stir the pot despite the social contract is already in tatters…
I think it is important for a community to have a “We reserve the right to refuse service for any reason” to lean on in this case. Sometimes you need to be able to say “Well, your behavior has not crossed the line of any rules, but you’ve been such an asshole since your first strike that we’re showing you the door anyway”
This is why it has become customary for online gamers to have fucked your mother last night.
I got a laugh out of this one, thank you 😂
Maybe try a different game? Some communities are just way more toxic than others.
Battle bits is a good example of what a mostly non toxic community is like.
Bf2042 isn’t toxic because you can no longer communicate with the other team, so no one even talks in chat at all. Squad and Arma are filled with mature gamers and practically no toxicity.Or you can just mute everyone at the start like I do in Apex. They never use the mic for communication, only to bitch and moan after they die doing something stupid. So it’s no loss. Or you can get friends, hook up on discord or similar and ignore everyone else
Yeah, this is basically what I’ve done. Hunt I’ve been pretty happy with. Destiny is the one that triggered this post, and the one that keeps catching me off guard.
I mostly play PvE stuff with friends and feel at peace with the game and how Bungie presents themselves … then I get total culture shock when I engage outside of my friends group.
Appreciate you looking out for my mental health though 😅
I also recommend Deep Rock Galactic, that community is mostly amazing. And you can usually spot the assholes just by the way they name their server.
Also, another amazing community that I wholy recommend giving a try - Neverwinter Nights EE. The largest RP servers are so much fun, and the people there are really amazing to interact with, assuming you respect and play by the rules.
Man, if I could play League of Legends with decent human beings consistently, I would be so happy.
A while back I decided to stop playing competitive/pvp focused games due to the stress it would cause me. One of the biggest things I’ve noticed is just how much less toxicity there is.
like every community has these “brain dead”, patronizing, or out right toxic elements that are just nasty
Which is extremely unfortunate. WoW forum threads could be a cesspool in a matter of seconds.
Anyway, as others pointed out, the main problem is competition. The more competitive a game is, the more invested some people get. The more invested you get, the more likely you are to rage at losses and behave like a monkey against a losing opponent. Hell, you don’t even need to be a player to feel invested, just look at people that worship their sports team.
For online games, companies just shrug and point to their automations for trying to control toxicity (Riot Games probably being the “best” in the area), because it’s much easier to automate than to come up with a solution.
My main recommendation is to avoid super competitive games. If you want to play those, then you’re probably better off trying to find small groups of colleagues for that. In ye olde days of games coming with the server-side executable, these groups were called clans. Quake, Unreal and Jedi Outcast had lots of them.
Please… Please just let it be toxic. I get that it can get pretty bad but I’m exhausted of having to police my language to the utmost degree because a dev thinks “night” is a racial slur because of the first three letters. The systems suck, it makes normal communication a chore, and the few wholesome moments often get ruined by it. Censorship in games and online to avoid toxicity is becoming a stranglehold and I can’t take it.
You’re right that it’s messy and imperfect and false positives can be really frustrating.
But the alternative - no efforts to maintain a safe space - is that vulnerable people are typically the target. Toxicity typically punches down.
I’ll happily trade some clunky inconvenience so that those people can safely participate
But the alternative - no efforts to maintain a safe space - is that vulnerable people are typically the target.
It doesn’t need to be all or nothing. We can do it in moderation. Remove slurs, don’t over reach by going after every curse word, every bad phrase, every impolite slight. We don’t need an internet with training wheels or water wings. Most of us are adults and I’d like to feel like one when I log on.
Most of us are adults and I’d like to feel like one when I log on.
I’d like to feel like it too. Adults shouldn’t act like children.
Ya fair enough. I’d put my “razor” at behaviour that targets vulnerable / minorities, which is probably broader / vaguer than just slurs, but it’s going to be a spectrum of opinions and preferences
We agree there then, protected groups is where it should start and stop. Slurs I think would cover the majority of that kind of behavior but the problem is the more you try to crack down on bad actors the more false positives you get. There’s a term for it but it’s escaping me.
You’re welcome to be toxic with others who want that, but I hate that this behavior, defines the competitive gaming experience. There should be other options.
I’m not talking about “safe spaces”, I’m talking about giving people options to say “fuck that” without having to just avoid the game (something that’s totally possible).
You don’t need banned for doing stuff like this, but you also don’t need to be shoving it down people’s throats that just want to play the game on skill and strategy alone without this cringe “mind game” idea and blatant disrespect for other players.
Sure but the only way games can actually solve it isn’t by policing chat but by giving you control over what chat you see. Mute options and features like in League of Legends, a full chat ‘off’ button. Additionally Incentives for sportsmanlike behavior which grant relevant rewards seem to serve as good positive reinforcement.
A lot of people just get emotionally invested in games. It’s not always a mind game or strategy, it’s often times just someone who is more invested in the outcome than maybe you are. Hell, sometimes it feels good to make your opponent rage.
I just don’t want to leave it up to game deva because they almost always over correct:
Those “turn X off” buttons are fine; they’re great actually, that’s exactly what I’m advocating for (at least in the in game portion of things). There should be more of that, and they should be standard options.
e.g. it took Quake Champions years before they finally decided to add a mute chat button … and when I suggested it almost a year before they implemented it, the discord chat lit into me “get tougher skin”, “lolololol”, etc kind of comments.
Every time it’s brought up people take it personally like it’s their right to be a dick in the game you both paid for… just because developers didn’t implement an option to allow people to shut them up. Even here there are some pretty obnoxious takes (I’m not talking about yours) insisting I just need to get over it because “it’s just a game.”
I’m not saying anybody should be prevented from having a competitive rage baiting game where they trash talk left and right … but some people do not enjoy trash talk regardless of whether or not they can “handle it” and I am one of those people.
Edit: For forums, I think non-constructive criticism/disrespectful comments/personal attacks should be “punished” by disabling forum/comment access though. There’s no benefit to “mind games” or “trash talk” there… if you don’t have anything constructive to say… I don’t think you should be on, e.g., a suggestion forum. It’s not helping the poster or the developers, it’s just outright spam.
I get what you’re saying. When I was a kid playing some Red Alert or C&C game with a friend we’d be censored when saying “cum?” - which means “how?” in our language. I thought that was stupid as shit. I still do now for the most part. It’s hard to have a conversation when everyday words are censored (and I was too young to know the meaning in english).
A more relatable example: If a group of friends of a particular minority want to play with each other and call each other names (that would be offensive otherwise) that may be in good fun and censoring that would be stupid and ruin the fun.BUT
If somebody is being harassed and targeted for being black or asian or a girl or whatever, that’s way different. I think we’ve all seen it happen quite often and it sucks and it often goes on for quite a lot - some of these games can last for up to 90 minutes AND they punish you if you leave early! So having to endure all that abuse certainly sucks and that sort of behavior should be punishable so that people don’t become punching bags for others to vent their frustration. In a lot of cases these folks are kids or young adults.
I think companies could deal with that but they choose not to out of convenience (having to implement some sort of moderation could get expensive and to do it properly you need to get some human eyes involved to decide on the matter), and fear that they might lose a paying customer (in case they ban an abusive player for example).
For a long time I asked myself the same question. Never found a very satisfying answer. In the meantime I stopped playing Dota 2 (which often has griefers) and Battlefield (which often has cheaters) so I’m not so troubled by this issue anymore.
I think devs just don’t care and leave dealing with these kinda folks up to the players just because it’s the status quo and nobody pushes them to do anything about it.Well if nothing else… I appreciate your comradery. 🫡
Serious competitive multiplayer games have this problem IMO because they foster a us v them competitive mindset and take no steps to dissuade players taking it to seriously. Players act like crabs in a proverbial MMR bucket.
Deep Rock has an amazing community mainly because the devs take it into consideration with the entire design of the game. It is possible.
Journey had one of the best multiplayer experiences. The way they made it was absolutely amazing.
