I still don’t believe in the horseshoe theory. I was just ironically pointing to the fact that the flag posted here could also be classic antisemite neo-nazi merch just as well. Without the context of it being posted in a left community, could you honestly tell?
I suppose the use of the star of David could be interpreted as anti-Jewish without the context; on the other hand, it’s clearly aimed at “Israel”, and they did decide to incorporate it into their flag. I would prefer not to use that symbol in connection with “Israel” since the “Jewish state” idea is a lie used to justify settler colonialism, but not everyone would agree
But the context is right here, so you’re just doing what every horseshoe thory proponent do. And you know what really is antisemite? Zionists (not to mention christian zionists) actively trying to hide behind the back of all Jews, and playing the “holocaust” card ever time they do yet another atrocity. Did you see the main slogan of USA Jews protesting against Israel actions? “Not in our name” - they do get it too.
So what, my question was if one could tell without context, if the posted flag belongs to the left or to the right.
so you’re just doing what every horseshoe thory proponent do
Nope, because I am perfectly aware that politically left people who hate Israel do so for very different reasons than right-extremist antisemites do. I simply meant to point out that most antisemite neo-nazis would like the flag OP posted.
Zionists (not to mention christian zionists) actively trying to hide behind the back of all Jews, and playing the “holocaust” card ever time they do yet another atrocity. Did you see the main slogan of USA Jews protesting against Israel actions? “Not in our name” - they do get it too.
Radical zionists are just another variation of ultra-nationalist right-extremists I guess but that is really off topic …
This is straightforwardly a consequence of the Israeli appropriation of the symbols of Judaism, is it not?
What (percentage of?) symbols of the state of Israel are not based on (potentially ambiguous) preexisting Jewish symbols or myths they’ve hijacked? How many of those are widely recognized by people who are not Israeli?
The result, very much intentional, is that, absent context or caption, symbolic reference to Israel is often ambiguous with symbolic reference to Jews and Judaism. But that’s not up to anyone but the Zionist project which has taken up those symbols in that way.
So what’s the proposition? Just say ‘well I guess we can’t ever make any iconographic reference to the state of Israel if we’re critical of it’? Or, more weakly, should we limit our use of Israeli iconography in some cases (e.g., say ‘sorry, but a Star of David with a skull in the middle, in particular, is just too much for reasons XYZ’)?
A couple of alternatives I can think of that might help:
try to incorporate text or other, less ambiguous symbols to make the meaning and target of our disapproval clear (which the OP does, to some extent)
when using the Star of David to represent Israel in a negative way, include other elements of the flag like the bars of the general aspect ratio of flags
This is straightforwardly a consequence of the Israeli appropriation of the symbols of Judaism
Hexagram was adopted as official symbol of zionism in 1897. Before it was not even used exclusively by Jews, christians used it too and it’s very prominent in islam. Not to mention as a simple and pleasing to the eyes regular geometric construct basically all civilisations came on it independently and used it.
Sorry if that came across wrong, I only meant to ironically imply horseshoe while my serious point was that the flag posted by OP could be used by neo-nazis just as well.
I still don’t believe in the horseshoe theory. I was just ironically pointing to the fact that the flag posted here could also be classic antisemite neo-nazi merch just as well. Without the context of it being posted in a left community, could you honestly tell?
I suppose the use of the star of David could be interpreted as anti-Jewish without the context; on the other hand, it’s clearly aimed at “Israel”, and they did decide to incorporate it into their flag. I would prefer not to use that symbol in connection with “Israel” since the “Jewish state” idea is a lie used to justify settler colonialism, but not everyone would agree
But the context is right here, so you’re just doing what every horseshoe thory proponent do. And you know what really is antisemite? Zionists (not to mention christian zionists) actively trying to hide behind the back of all Jews, and playing the “holocaust” card ever time they do yet another atrocity. Did you see the main slogan of USA Jews protesting against Israel actions? “Not in our name” - they do get it too.
So what, my question was if one could tell without context, if the posted flag belongs to the left or to the right.
Nope, because I am perfectly aware that politically left people who hate Israel do so for very different reasons than right-extremist antisemites do. I simply meant to point out that most antisemite neo-nazis would like the flag OP posted.
Radical zionists are just another variation of ultra-nationalist right-extremists I guess but that is really off topic …
This is straightforwardly a consequence of the Israeli appropriation of the symbols of Judaism, is it not?
What (percentage of?) symbols of the state of Israel are not based on (potentially ambiguous) preexisting Jewish symbols or myths they’ve hijacked? How many of those are widely recognized by people who are not Israeli?
The result, very much intentional, is that, absent context or caption, symbolic reference to Israel is often ambiguous with symbolic reference to Jews and Judaism. But that’s not up to anyone but the Zionist project which has taken up those symbols in that way.
So what’s the proposition? Just say ‘well I guess we can’t ever make any iconographic reference to the state of Israel if we’re critical of it’? Or, more weakly, should we limit our use of Israeli iconography in some cases (e.g., say ‘sorry, but a Star of David with a skull in the middle, in particular, is just too much for reasons XYZ’)?
A couple of alternatives I can think of that might help:
What else?
Hexagram was adopted as official symbol of zionism in 1897. Before it was not even used exclusively by Jews, christians used it too and it’s very prominent in islam. Not to mention as a simple and pleasing to the eyes regular geometric construct basically all civilisations came on it independently and used it.
Thanks for letting me know all this!
And yeah that latter point makes perfect sense to me.
So what was even the point of your earlier post? You know, we know, but you still implied horseshoe.
Sorry if that came across wrong, I only meant to ironically imply horseshoe while my serious point was that the flag posted by OP could be used by neo-nazis just as well.