Anthony Sabatini, who is running for Congress in Florida's 11th district, reportedly made the remarks during June's Florida Teenage Republicans Youth Summit.
In practice it looks 100% like the modern GOP. Constant advocation for political violence, demonization of minorities, use of office and power to force Christian morality on non-Christian’s, privatization of public infrastructure, direct cooperation with corporations to suppress labor rights…
Christofascism “disposed or allowed Christians, to impose themselves not only upon other religions but other cultures, and political parties which do not march under the banner of the final, normative, victorious Christ” – as Paul F. Knitter describes Sölle’s view.
Sound familiar?
Sölle saw three uniting themes in U.S. Christofascism at the end of the Cold War: 1) U.S. superiority; 2) the veneration of work and, in the inverse, cruelty toward those who depend on welfare or solidarity; and 3) the lionization of the patriarchal nuclear family and, in the inverse, the demonization of sexual and gender minorities.
That should sound extremely familiar to anyone who’s lived I the US at any point since the start of the 80s at the very least.
I don’t have access to the study, so I can’t check for myself- but I just tallied the last 15 congressional votes. There were 273 Republican votes dissenting from the majority of their party, there were 114 Democrat votes dissenting from the majority of their party.
Christofascism “disposed or allowed Christians, to impose themselves not only upon other religions but other cultures, and political parties which do not march under the banner of the final, normative, victorious Christ” – as Paul F. Knitter describes Sölle’s view.
I’d arguing that sounds closer to Christian authoritarianism or a theocracy. Fascism is fundamentally the belief that everything should be devoted to enforcing and strengthening the rule of the state over everyone. Incorporating them into the state while making sure they are subjects to it. It is the opposite of democracy- a fascist believes in people serving the state, not the state serving the people.
Sölle saw three uniting themes in U.S. Christofascism at the end of the Cold War: 1) U.S. superiority; 2) the veneration of work and, in the inverse, cruelty toward those who depend on welfare or solidarity; and 3) the lionization of the patriarchal nuclear family and, in the inverse, the demonization of sexual and gender minorities.
I’d argue this is more chauvinism and conservative nationalism than being inherently tied to Christianity. After all, that sounds like what Ben Shapiro and Dennis Prager believe.
Idk where you heard that is what fascism is…
The 14 tenets of ur-fascism:
The cult of tradition. This is the belief that the truth is already known once and for all. Fascists believe there is no need to advance in learning.
The rejection of modernism. Fascists reject the Enlightenment and its evidence-based rationality.
The cult of action for action’s sake. Fascist leaders act impulsively, without thinking or planning ahead.
No analytical criticism. Fascists ignore nuance and see any disagreement as treasonous.
Fear of difference. Fascists fear diversity. Thus they are racist by definition.
Appeal to a frustrated middle class. An economically frustrated and/or politically marginalized middle class is easy to stir to anger.
Obsession with a plot. Because the followers must be made to feel besieged, an internal “enemy” is provided: 7.
Immigrants, Muslims, Hispanics, Blacks. (Historically the Jews were often made to be “the enemy.”)
Anti-elitism. The followers are made to feel humiliated by the wealth and strength of the educated “elite.” This is used to create resentment.
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. Fascists believe that life is permanent warfare. Therefore a desire for peace is treasonous.
Contempt for the weak. A fascist leader despises his underlings, who in turn despise those under them. They all either mock or ignore the poor, the sick, and the disabled.
The cult of heroism. The Fascist is eager to die a hero’s death. In his impatience, he frequently sends other people to their deaths.
Machismo. Fascists show disdain for women, disregard for chastity, and condemnation of homosexuality.
Selective populism. Under fascism, the “voice of the people” is not the democratic majority, but only the voices of those who support the leader.
Ur-fascism speaks Newspeak. Just as in Orwell’s 1984, Fascists use an impoverished vocabulary and an elementary syntax to limit complex and critical reasoning.
And yes, of course it sounds like Ben Shapiro and Dennis Prager, becauses they’re fascists. By definition. They are fascists.
Idk where you heard that is what fascism is… 14 tenets of ur-fascism
It is my personal belief that the only possible way to interpret the ideology someone espouses is to look at what they actually say about it. If you want to define Marxism, look at how Marx defined it. If you want to define Monetarism, look at how Milton Friedman defined it. If you want to define Nazism, look at how the Nazis defined it. And, if you want to define Fascism look at how Mussolini defined it. Obviously, the Nazis, nor the Fascists actually followed entirely what they espoused but I’d still say you can only analyze the ideology based on what they actually advocated rather than what they did. If you want to analyze them as people, or as a successful state- look at what they did.
The tenets of ur-fascism were developed by studying the ACTIONS of the fascists. Exactly what you claim you need to do. If you do that, you see the Nazis fit all 14 of these, as do most modern American neo-conservatives.
No I said you need to do the opposite. The fascist ideology is what they espouse. If they don’t follow what they espouse than they are acting against the ideology they espouse. Maybe they have some crypto-ideology.
You’re right, I misread. So, you think that fascists can only be fascist if they admit to it? So the Nazis weren’t fascists then, according to your definition. Only Mussolini was a fascist, by that standard. It’s a really bad standard if so, because you’d be literally the only person on the planet that doesn’t think the Nazis are fascists other than other Nazis. Hitler didn’t go up on stage and say “IM A FASCIST.” So, by your standards, he clearly cannot be a fascist. Maybe he’s a crypto fascist…
Your definition makes literally no sense whatsoever.
Either way, I don’t think you have a solid grasp on political theory or of ideology in general. Most people are unaware of their own ideology, that is how ideology works… ideology is the small lies you tell yourself that make the world go around. The lies you’ve taken as facts to make life easier. Even sentences like, “this chicken is worth $10” reflect internalized ideology. We all hold many ideologically driven positions, and unless you personally take the time to examine your own actions and thoughts, you’re likely to be unaware of them.
Turning to the results, we see evidence of the public underestimating the degree to which their own senators toe the party line. Looking only at the control condition, the average actual party unity of the respondents’ senators is 94.7%.
The party Unity was determined by taking data from voteview.org
I don’t doubt their is high unity, I’m just questioning the claim that it’s higher amongst Republicans, who are generally a tiny bit from fractured in voting when I’ve looked at votes- and from my own comparison of 15 recent votes now. Also looking here the Republicans seem to have a slightly wider spread
I’m not saying this to defend Republicans, just questioning the claim that they’re more unitary in voting.
If you read the linked study, you’d see that you’re pretty typical in underestimating party Unity, the majority of people on both sides do. Your link doesn’t work at all though, so I can’t see what you’re trying to show me.
You realize there are hundreds of votes every session, right? Thousands every year. So you’re not even using 1% as your sample size. The study above used every vote across an entire year.
Listen, you asked for a source, I provided it. You didn’t know how to open it, so I provided it again in an open format. You didn’t read it, didn’t even look at it, and you think that somehow 16 votes is more representative than thousands. I’m done here, if you want to continue discussing on our fascism thread, I’ll continue there, but this line of discussion has clearly devolved to the point where there is no point in continuing it. The data is there, if you decide to read it.
Of course, also why I supplied the other source. But I am not certain Republicans are less united. I just haven’t seen any evidence that they’re more unitary.
I literally provided evidence. Thousands of votes, aggregated professionally and peer reviewed. You have seen evidence, you just refused to acknowledge it.
If you’re genuinely interested in data, here’s a study.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1065912917722233
In practice it looks 100% like the modern GOP. Constant advocation for political violence, demonization of minorities, use of office and power to force Christian morality on non-Christian’s, privatization of public infrastructure, direct cooperation with corporations to suppress labor rights…
Sound familiar?
That should sound extremely familiar to anyone who’s lived I the US at any point since the start of the 80s at the very least.
I don’t have access to the study, so I can’t check for myself- but I just tallied the last 15 congressional votes. There were 273 Republican votes dissenting from the majority of their party, there were 114 Democrat votes dissenting from the majority of their party.
I’d arguing that sounds closer to Christian authoritarianism or a theocracy. Fascism is fundamentally the belief that everything should be devoted to enforcing and strengthening the rule of the state over everyone. Incorporating them into the state while making sure they are subjects to it. It is the opposite of democracy- a fascist believes in people serving the state, not the state serving the people.
I’d argue this is more chauvinism and conservative nationalism than being inherently tied to Christianity. After all, that sounds like what Ben Shapiro and Dennis Prager believe.
Idk where you heard that is what fascism is… The 14 tenets of ur-fascism:
The cult of tradition. This is the belief that the truth is already known once and for all. Fascists believe there is no need to advance in learning.
The rejection of modernism. Fascists reject the Enlightenment and its evidence-based rationality. The cult of action for action’s sake. Fascist leaders act impulsively, without thinking or planning ahead.
No analytical criticism. Fascists ignore nuance and see any disagreement as treasonous.
Fear of difference. Fascists fear diversity. Thus they are racist by definition.
Appeal to a frustrated middle class. An economically frustrated and/or politically marginalized middle class is easy to stir to anger.
Obsession with a plot. Because the followers must be made to feel besieged, an internal “enemy” is provided: 7.
Immigrants, Muslims, Hispanics, Blacks. (Historically the Jews were often made to be “the enemy.”)
Anti-elitism. The followers are made to feel humiliated by the wealth and strength of the educated “elite.” This is used to create resentment.
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. Fascists believe that life is permanent warfare. Therefore a desire for peace is treasonous.
Contempt for the weak. A fascist leader despises his underlings, who in turn despise those under them. They all either mock or ignore the poor, the sick, and the disabled.
The cult of heroism. The Fascist is eager to die a hero’s death. In his impatience, he frequently sends other people to their deaths.
Machismo. Fascists show disdain for women, disregard for chastity, and condemnation of homosexuality.
Selective populism. Under fascism, the “voice of the people” is not the democratic majority, but only the voices of those who support the leader.
Ur-fascism speaks Newspeak. Just as in Orwell’s 1984, Fascists use an impoverished vocabulary and an elementary syntax to limit complex and critical reasoning.
And yes, of course it sounds like Ben Shapiro and Dennis Prager, becauses they’re fascists. By definition. They are fascists.
Edit: spelling and formatting
It is my personal belief that the only possible way to interpret the ideology someone espouses is to look at what they actually say about it. If you want to define Marxism, look at how Marx defined it. If you want to define Monetarism, look at how Milton Friedman defined it. If you want to define Nazism, look at how the Nazis defined it. And, if you want to define Fascism look at how Mussolini defined it. Obviously, the Nazis, nor the Fascists actually followed entirely what they espoused but I’d still say you can only analyze the ideology based on what they actually advocated rather than what they did. If you want to analyze them as people, or as a successful state- look at what they did.
The tenets of ur-fascism were developed by studying the ACTIONS of the fascists. Exactly what you claim you need to do. If you do that, you see the Nazis fit all 14 of these, as do most modern American neo-conservatives.
The tenets of ur-fascism were developed by studying the ACTIONS of the fascists. Exactly what you claim you need to do.
No I said you need to do the opposite. The fascist ideology is what they espouse. If they don’t follow what they espouse than they are acting against the ideology they espouse. Maybe they have some crypto-ideology.
You’re right, I misread. So, you think that fascists can only be fascist if they admit to it? So the Nazis weren’t fascists then, according to your definition. Only Mussolini was a fascist, by that standard. It’s a really bad standard if so, because you’d be literally the only person on the planet that doesn’t think the Nazis are fascists other than other Nazis. Hitler didn’t go up on stage and say “IM A FASCIST.” So, by your standards, he clearly cannot be a fascist. Maybe he’s a crypto fascist…
Your definition makes literally no sense whatsoever.
Either way, I don’t think you have a solid grasp on political theory or of ideology in general. Most people are unaware of their own ideology, that is how ideology works… ideology is the small lies you tell yourself that make the world go around. The lies you’ve taken as facts to make life easier. Even sentences like, “this chicken is worth $10” reflect internalized ideology. We all hold many ideologically driven positions, and unless you personally take the time to examine your own actions and thoughts, you’re likely to be unaware of them.
Also, Marx didn’t define Marxism, nor was he a Marxist. So… yeah.
I use the term Marxism because he used socialist but he was not the originator of the term socialist so it doesn’t really fit this example.
Right, because the example doesn’t work.
Here’sa sci hub link to the study.
https://sci.bban.top/pdf/10.1177/1065912917722233.pdf?download=true
The party Unity was determined by taking data from voteview.org
I don’t doubt their is high unity, I’m just questioning the claim that it’s higher amongst Republicans, who are generally a tiny bit from fractured in voting when I’ve looked at votes- and from my own comparison of 15 recent votes now. Also looking here the Republicans seem to have a slightly wider spread
I’m not saying this to defend Republicans, just questioning the claim that they’re more unitary in voting.
If you read the linked study, you’d see that you’re pretty typical in underestimating party Unity, the majority of people on both sides do. Your link doesn’t work at all though, so I can’t see what you’re trying to show me.
I’m not underestimating the unity. I actually tallied the dissenting votes for each party for the last 16 votes in the House
You realize there are hundreds of votes every session, right? Thousands every year. So you’re not even using 1% as your sample size. The study above used every vote across an entire year.
Listen, you asked for a source, I provided it. You didn’t know how to open it, so I provided it again in an open format. You didn’t read it, didn’t even look at it, and you think that somehow 16 votes is more representative than thousands. I’m done here, if you want to continue discussing on our fascism thread, I’ll continue there, but this line of discussion has clearly devolved to the point where there is no point in continuing it. The data is there, if you decide to read it.
Of course, also why I supplied the other source. But I am not certain Republicans are less united. I just haven’t seen any evidence that they’re more unitary.
I literally provided evidence. Thousands of votes, aggregated professionally and peer reviewed. You have seen evidence, you just refused to acknowledge it.