If you have no preferred pronouns, just say (none) or something
This will help make people feel more comfortable in this comm and has a side effect of showing you support trans people when making comments in other communities. It will also make reactionaries seethe and make it easier for mods to purge them, and make trans people feel safer all over the fediverse.
So in other words, people who are still eggs, closeted trans people who have an identifiable account and similar groups now have to misgender themselves, which is a much more horrific thing than getting misgendered by someone else.
Requiring people to state their pronouns is unironically a transphobic policy! Creating an environment in which not stating pronouns can be taken as not supporting trans people is likewise transphobic. The practical consequences of these decisions are extremely bad and I strongly request that you undo it!
Lol
Our instance mandated pronouns years ago. They also mass banned concern trolling posts like this one in the ensuing struggle session. We are better off for it.
“Any” is an option, “Use Name” is also an option.
Both of which identify you as not cis, thus they are not options in the very common case where that is an issue.
No, they don’t. I personally know a cis person who has their pronouns on hexbear set as they/them or comrade/them. Those aren’t the pronouns they use in real life.
If someone assumes you’re trans simply because your pronouns are set to something other than she/her or he/him, that’s kind of on them. People are allowed to lie on the internet. Choose any pronouns you like, it doesn’t matter.
I personally assume absolutely nothing about the cisness or transness of someone with “any” or “none/use name” as their pronouns of choice.
Both of which identify you as not cis
No.
deleted by creator
🤡 take. if you don’t want to share your pronouns, unsure or use name are both fine. it doesn’t out you or misgender you. this is debate nonsense to try to discredit a policy that is definitively helpful for trans people
if you don’t want to share your pronouns, unsure or use name are both fine.
Seconding this, putting something there really isn’t a big ask, especially if you’re engaging with people in a way you want to be constructive.
If they have a practical concern with this they can say something like (use name) (unsure) (any) after their username. Just to verify, are you trans yourself? This is common practice in basically every trans space.
Requiring people to state their pronouns is unironically a transphobic policy!
No, it’s not.
closeted trans people who have an identifiable account and similar groups now have to misgender themselves, which is a much more horrific thing than getting misgendered by someone else.
I would suggest they create a new account for exploring these feelings in trans spaces, then. Its more secure to do that anyways. He/him is the assumed choice in most internet spaces which misgenders a wide swathe of trans people, of course I would prefer it to be they/them, as its better if you don’t know the person’s pronouns. The reality though is we need to implement these things in steps so people can properly understand why its important to use they/them when you don’t know someone’s gender. I still get regularly misgendered with she/her in my name, these people that purposefully misgender must be removed from this space to make it safer, and by having more people with pronouns in username, it will make that job easier.
If they have a practical concern with this they can say something like (use name) (unsure) (any) after their username. Just to verify, are you trans yourself? This is common practice in basically every trans space.
Yes, and that is WHY I’m so vocal about it, because I have experience with environments where the choice really was to misgender myself or to risk looking like a biggot. It sucked and that
Requiring people to state their pronouns is unironically a transphobic policy!No, it’s not.
It forces trans people who are early in their transition and eggs to pick between two really bad options. That makes it functionally (not intentionally) transphobic.
closeted trans people who have an identifiable account and similar groups now have to misgender themselves, which is a much more horrific thing than getting misgendered by someone else.I would suggest they create a new account for exploring these feelings in trans spaces, then. Its more secure to do that anyways.
A big point of something like Lemmy is that you don’t need separate accounts in all the communities that you are in and trans communities should put the bar low for people who are looking to explore things. It may not always be the safest thing to do, but reality is messy and people who are just kinda uncomfortable with what they have may still be far away from understanding.
He/him is the assumed choice in most internet spaces which misgenders a wide swathe of trans people, of course I would prefer it to be they/them, as its better if you don’t know the person’s pronouns. The reality though is we need to implement these things in steps so people can properly understand why its important to use they/them when you don’t know someone’s gender. I still get regularly misgendered with she/her in my name, these people that purposefully misgender must be removed from this space to make it safer, and by having more people with pronouns in username, it will make that job easier.
Nobody says you can’t have your pronouns in your username if you want them too, but forcing other people to do the same is really reaching into other people’s personal zone to an extend that I do consider inappropriate.
Thank you for sticking up for us.
Sincerely, someone deep in the closet for reasons of personal safety.
Yes, and that is WHY I’m so vocal about it, because I have experience with environments where the choice really was to misgender myself or to risk looking like a biggot. It sucked and that It forces trans people who are early in their transition and eggs to pick between two really bad options. That makes it functionally (not intentionally) transphobic.
While I appreciate your experience, and of course all of us have been questioning at some point, it is important for building a thriving trans community. The rule stays.
A big point of something like Lemmy is that you don’t need separate accounts in all the communities that you are in and trans communities should put the bar low for people who are looking to explore things. It may not always be the safest thing to do, but reality is messy and people who are just kinda uncomfortable with what they have may still be far away from understanding.
Creating a new account is safer, if your argument is you want things to be safer for trans people (re: not showing pronouns in ID), you must also understand that creating a new account is safer for exploration. Your argument is weak.
If they feel nothing suits them they can say (none) or (use name)
Nobody says you can’t have your pronouns in your username if you want them too, but forcing other people to do the same is really reaching into other people’s personal zone to an extend that I do consider inappropriate.
I care about making a safe trans community, and making sure people aren’t misgendered is part of that. This is how you do that. If you’re not for making sure people are gendered properly, leave. 🤷♀️ But I suggest you consider it and keep an open mind about it, I genuinely think you have not seen the benefits of this policy.
Stay strong against the haters. Mandatory pronoun tags and removal of the downvote button are the two best things we ever did on
what is the difference between putting (unsure) or (any) and just not having them? you would still basically have to ask or assume you picked the right one.
on a side note, making “requirements” to be trans is a slippery slope, and nobody should have to prove, or our themselves, just by existing and participating in the world.
and why should it matter if I know I’m interacting with a trans person? why can’t we all just treat each other with respect, and if we want to find out more about each other individually we can just ask?
and while your solution of “just make another account” could work for some it simply won’t work for all
what is the difference between putting (unsure) or (any) and just not having them? you would still basically have to ask or assume you picked the right one.
the point is to affirm trans identities, by putting those in you are showing you support and affirm trans identities.
on a side note, making “requirements” to be trans is a slippery slope, and nobody should have to prove, or our themselves, just by existing and participating in the world.
showing pronouns is not a requirement to be trans, but it is a requirement going forward for this community in order to remove reactionaries. people will be asked to change their IDs. if they cant due to their instance, thats fine.
and why should it matter if I know I’m interacting with a trans person? why can’t we all just treat each other with respect, and if we want to find out more about each other individually we can just ask?
the rule explicitly states cis people should show pronouns as well. knowing if someone is trans online (and seeing many others) does have practical benefits in attracting more trans people to a space, though. but this isnt outing yourself as trans, just showing pronouns.
and while your solution of “just make another account” could work for since it simply won’t work for all
it certainly does work for all, it takes a couple of seconds
Ahhh sweet redoing the pronouns struggle session on another instance
More for the purges I assume
I’m all about it
Although I’m a cis woman, I have never felt especially pleased with being lumped into this category. I have never listed my pronouns before, ever, and I avoid listing my gender if possible, because I do not want the first thing people to know about me be my gender and then view me through that lens. I have always appreciated the trans community overlooks my femaleness and sees me instead. In real life daily, to my great displeasure I am lumped into one of two boxes; the internet is a welcome reprieve.
I am not nonbinary, I do not prefer they/them. I go by she/her, but I don’t want to advertise this. I have my own struggles with gender, even if I’m ultimately cis, and forcing me to report my gender in my username seems frankly gender essentialist.
I did not choose my pronouns.
What should I write? (none) is wrong, because I can be referred to with pronouns.
(ally) might be nice, except in LGBTIA+, “Ally” implies being straight, and I’m not straight.
How about an empty ()? to indicate I acknowledge the system but opt out personally. Or something cute like (friend), or comrade (but I don’t know all the implications of that)
an empty () is completely valid, imo. or even (friend) or (ally) or (any) or something. i definitely would recommend discussing with yor, she could probably help explain why this is a rule, but i get you.
on hex there’s both a comrade option and a use name option. the latter seems particularly relevant based on what you said
“use name,” I infer, is “jsomae was talking about jsomae’s day and mentioned jsomae saw a…” sort of thing. I would rather be assumed male than this. (Though if others prefer this for themselves, I approve in that case)
fair enough, also .ml isn’t my instance so I don’t wanna be too pushy on whether options like friend or comrade are preferred here. @marcie@lemmy.ml might be better to weigh in specifics like that
tho I do wanna go back to this real quick
I go by she/her, but I don’t want to advertise this. I have my own struggles with gender, even if I’m ultimately cis, and forcing me to report my gender in my username seems frankly gender essentialist.
pronouns, in this case, are really just used to know how to refer to you. if I were referring to you without seeing your above comments I’d probably avoid pronouns (none/use name). other people who are mindful of this would end up doing the same or maybe using they/them to be safe. in person, it sounds like you don’t have the issue of needing to provide pronouns (with many complicated feelings on that). in the same way that you say the trans community sees you as a person and not simply your assigned gender at birth, this isn’t a request to box you in or anything like that. this community isn’t binary focused or gender essentialist. it’s just how would you like us to talk about you? if that’s something you’re not sure on, maybe a label like (it’s complicated) or something acknowledging it’s a complex topic for you. it doesn’t have to mean you’re not cis to feel weird about the weight of the expected gender binary in society. that can hurt trans and cis people alike
One way or another, Lemmy has many communities. Even if you don’t have any preconceptions about women, others will. And even if it’s all in my head and nobody on lemmy has such prejudices – she/her isn’t my identity, but my username is. jsomae is how I choose to present to the world, and I don’t want femininity to be a part of how I present.
then to ask simply, how do you want people to refer to you when talking to you online? whether you include a pronoun tag or not, people are going to refer to you
Exactly the same way I expect people to know I’m Canadian. That is to say, I expect people to call me she/her if they recognise me or in the rare event my sex is relevant and surfaces (“my experience as a woman is…”).
Pragmatically, most people will he/him me if they are Neanderthalpilled and they/them me if they are based, as is the rule online. :P (and those he/himmers will assume I’m American as well.)
I understand your point of view more than most of the arguments I’ve seen against mandatory pronouns. So please take my comment as friendly, I’ll do my best not to be a rude asshole.
How would you feel about (any) for your pronoun choice? That’s functionally the same as not listing them, people can still choose which ones they want to use for you, but it still shows you’re supportive of people prominently displaying their pronouns. That or you could consider maybe a neopronoun. I personally really like e/em/eir. They’re nice and genderless, easy to use, and, bonus, a mathematician came up with them in like the '70s (I could have the year wrong and I refuse to look it up), not because he was trying to be trans inclusive, but because he hated that math books assumed their readers were all men and he wanted to include women in his writing. (Singular they was considered ungrammatical at that point.)
I would not have assumed you’re a rude asshole based on the rest of your comment – but either way, thank you for being friendly.
I don’t like (any) as that means I acquiesce to the years of being assumed male by default on the Internet. I feel spite about that not because I feel euphoric when she/her’d but rather at a more base level of feminism – that male-by-default is a patriarchal practice and so I object to it. If I were ok with (any) then I’d be OK with he/him. As a cis woman, he/him doesn’t cause me dysphoria, it just causes me to roll my eyes at the state of the world. Making my pronouns visible isn’t a fix for this, it’s just a band-aid as it doesn’t magically cause the world to be less sexist. Honestly, getting he/him’d by default is basically a useful litmus test for the state of sexism in a community I guess.
I’m not interested in changing my pronouns to a neopronoun or to any other pronoun really, but it’s a nice suggestion and the aside about the mathematician is really interesting. As a mathematician myself I approve of the etymology. :)
You can be a she/her NB btw. If you feel a disconnect with your gender or don’t feel connected to it, you’re free to consider yourself trans.
Anyways, I don’t see any problem with avoiding pronouns. Personally, I used to be in that camp - I wanted to be supportive of trans people, but I didn’t want to list he/him, but didn’t think I was trans enough to use other pronouns… So I just did not put them.
(ally) might be nice, except in LGBTIA+, “Ally” implies being straight, and I’m not straight.
This could be interpreted as aro/ace erasure/exclusion btw by putting the word “Ally” so close to the acronym.
Aro/ace are valid and are LGBTIA+. What I mean is, “ally” implies straight, and I’m not.
Gender is a spectrum, and I consider myself cis, even if there are others more cis than me. Most of my troubles with gender come from me feeling society is at fault for treating me differently because of my sex. I think most educated women express such opinions, and that doesn’t make us enbies.
Fair. I think it’s quite reasonable women hide they’re women on the internet given how they are often treated. Just wanted to point out NBies are a wide spectrum and what pronouns you use doesn’t need to dictate your gender.
Guess it could it be comparable to being a 1 or 6 on the Kinsey scale and not considering yourself bi because the label doesn’t convey any useful information about your attraction? Imo, which label you choose at that point is up to you and I don’t think it seems biphobic or NBphobic to choose one of the binary labels.
Looking at this thread and thinking about the long, laborious work our transgender mods are doing and will have to continue doing to clean this place up
respect.sharing your pronouns is the very least you can do to show support to trans comrades, so this small request shouldn’t be an issue at all
[Sincere] why when they can be in my bio?
The issue is people have to click your name to see it, if its in your ID people can see it immediately. lowers risk for misgendering and people can see what you prefer at a glance. also, at a glance, people will know you support trans people
why do people in general need to know this at a glance? Can they not tell by the content of my posts that I support trans people? I thought this rule was to help mods make quick judgments.
quick judgments, see if someone is trans supportive, also helps gender you right
Okay, thank you for explaining!
no problem, any time
This is unenfoceable and you can see in your own headline why. Why call it a rule? is this a reference to Bill Maher? if so, please stop referencing that loathsome removed, he does not deserve your time of day in any way, shape or form.
Maher? I have no clue.
Its absolutely enforceable, funny coming from a hexbear tbh, you have it in your ID right now 🤷♀️
I know I have it in my bio, because I am in agreement with it since before you made it a rule.
Your own headline says that not all instances have this as an option. That makes it unenforceable for those instances. It is also unenforceable for anyone wandering in from a main page, because they won’t be reading this rule before posting. And then sure you can delete their post I guess but what if it wasn’t transphobic?
And if you don’t know Bill Maher, good. Just know that he is a ghoul and loves to say ‘new rule’ and then spout the worst take you have heard in your life on a weekly basis.
Your own headline says that not all instances have this as an option. That makes it unenforceable for those instances. It is also unenforceable for anyone wandering in from a main page, because they won’t be reading this rule before posting. And then sure you can delete their post I guess but what if it wasn’t transphobic?
The post wont be removed, but I will suggest they change name. Repeated infractions might mean a removal, though, and if someone reports their instance can’t do it, their instance will be ignored for the rule. The purpose is to make a safer space, we’ll see if it works
And if you don’t know Bill Maher, good. Just know that he is a ghoul and loves to say ‘new rule’ and then spout the worst take you have heard in your life on a weekly basis.
👼 I am innocent
I can’t watch maher cuz his gob makes my heart pump and my punchin’ arm shake something fierce.
Man why couldnt Will Smith have slapped him? That was a great slap.
I couldve have that as my desktop background rn
I know I have it in my bio, because I am in agreement with it since before you made it a rule.
Your own headline says that not all instances have this as an option. That makes it unenforceable for those instances. It is also unenforceable for anyone wandering in from a main page, because they won’t be reading this rule before posting. And then sure you can delete their post I guess but what if it wasn’t transphobic?
And if you don’t know Bill Maher, good. Just know that he is a ghoul and loves to say ‘new rule’ and then spout the worst take you have heard in your life on a weekly basis.
I know I have it in my bio, because I am in agreement with it since before you made it a rule.
Your own headline says that not all instances have this as an option. That makes it unenforceable for those instances. It is also unenforceable for anyone wandering in from a main page, because they won’t be reading this rule before posting. And then sure you can delete their post I guess but what if it wasn’t transphobic?
And if you don’t know Bill Maher, good. Just know that he is a ghoul and loves to say ‘new rule’ and then spout the worst take you have heard in your life on a weekly basis.
This is completely enforceable, the only instance I know of that doesn’t allow changing your display name is Hexbear and that’s cuz we use that field for displaying pronouns lol
loathsome removed
Alright maybe, not “rule” as in hard coded and enforced by moderators, “rule” as in social norm.
Maybe?
I didn’t even notice you could alter your display name like this. Almost a year here and somehow missed this feature.
EDIT:
And apparently its only working on my blahaj.zone account (lol how appropriate)
my beehaw account is not letting me update the name
and my fedia account, which uses mbin doesn’t even have it as an optionthanks for the info! we’re trying to work within the constraints we have
you can change your username? but i like my username the way it is. so if i did this, i’d be like, juliebean_she_her_her_hers_herself@lemm.ee? bit of a mouthful, innit?
No, there’s your username and the thing that’s displayed above your posts. My username is apotheotic, my display name is apotheotic (she/her)
huh, okay, today i learned. now that you’ve mentioned it i do see your display name if i click through to your user page, but not on your posts/comments, and idk how to change mine, but if other folks can see that, i’ll look into it if i see a way.
Interesting!
The displayed username is different from the internal one. Im mathemachristian@lemm.ee but once i figure out how to do this it will display me as mathemachristian (he/him)@lemm.ee but internally refer to me still as mathemachristian@lemm.ee
edit: got my accounts mixed up but the point is the same
7·4 months agoDisplay names can, by default at least (on hexbear its 80 I think), be at most 24 chars long
this would be a good case for lemmy to start supporting flairs like reddit does. No shame in copying legitimately useful features.
Any idea if that’s something I can do on slrpnk.net? I’m on mobile right now, and not seeing an option.
You might have to login on desktop, I’m not familiar with solar punk (and if people mention their instance doesnt allow name changes i’ll make a tally of instances that dont and are exempt) but if you go to your settings usually it will have an editable text box for your display name
it doesn’t want to save my changes 🤔
There is a limit to how long usernames/nicknames can be on lemmy. You might have to only do like NOOBMASTER (she) or some shorter nickname for it to let you save it.
I guess you were right, thanks!
Can yall stop pushing your beliefs on people /lh
what is lh
Light hearted
oh ok thanks!
Yw
I understand the sentiment and would respect the decision, even if I don’t agree, but there are problems of consistency. You say people should make new accounts if necessary to explore their trans identity, but you’ll allow instance wide exemptions.
It would be nice if proper support for pronouns was added in the first place, but that’s also clearly not going to become a priority unless people openly demand it, so here we are with an inconsistent compromise.
Pretty much every IRL trans space I’ve ever been in has started with name + pronouns, it’s not a big ask and it normalizes being respectful of other people.
Sorry, I didn’t want to make a bad faith argument, but I think it’s necessary to clarify the issue.
The exemption will allow bigots from those instances to still have access and the benefit of doubt. People who might have valid reasons to not disclose openly their position will have to create a new account.
If pronouns are a safety measure, there’s a big flaw in making exemptions. Will the users know the people they are talking are not marked because they can’t be.
Just a thought. Maybe make it a required opener or signature.
(he / him / queer)
I do like the idea of mandating including pronouns in your first post in a thread if your instance doesn’t support them, rather than an exemption
I don’t really consider requiring pronouns to be a safety measure, more of a vibes check.
Frankly considering how normalized being transphobic on main is, I like the idea of pushing people to being supportive of trans people on main.
I just did (might take some time to propagate)
💖
Suggestions for when it becomes too long? Would ♂ work? I have 4 extra characters to work with.
With the standard length being 24 characters " [he/him]" would reduce it to 15 characters, " [she/her]" to 14 and " [they/them]" to 12 characters, which is really short for a username imo.
Lemm.ee apparently has it further reduced to 20.
could do (he)
🤦 thanks
np 💖
