Life Pro Tip for Americans: If you can save up for a plane ticket and go to another country. Europe would be my recommendation. It amazes me that there isn’t a mass exodus going on in the US. I don’t understand why anyone would possibly choose to live there tbh.
I (Danish) am married to an American and it was easier for me to get a US green card, than for her to get a residence permit in Denmark. After living some time in the US we decided to move to Denmark and while it’s great to live here, it was a freaking painstaking process to get her a permit.
Sure if your family came over here in the last 100 years. My family came over from Ireland somewhere around the famine, it’s too far back, I’ve checked. Y’all need to stop telling us its so easy to just move out of the us, it’s fucking not.
Could you maybe go over the process for how you got Italian citizenship? Trying to go through the process now with my fiancée and it’s… a lot (neither of us speaks Italian either).
Specifically, how did you go about requesting documents from Italy? How did you know which civil registry to request from? What if I can’t find the civil registry for the state her descendant is from?
Europe isn’t a country and it’s not always easy to just move to another country. You have to actually be desirable to have in the country to even be considered.
That’s kind of the big problem with a lot of the Americans talking about moving to Europe for benefits. They lack these benefits because their jobs aren’t specialized or well paid, and European countries aren’t likely to accept their visa applications. Outside of marrying a European national, the best path is probably collective bargaining in the states.
Also just packing up and leaving means leaving behind all your family, friends, possessions. Very probably you’ll have to practically start your career over from a much lower stage, learn a whole new language and live as an outsider in a culture you’re unfamiliar with.
In addition, the people who would most benefit (the very poor with poor paying jobs that don’t have these benefits) are the least able to do so. It’s not just a plane ticket, you need lawyers to help you navigate the process.
And the reality is that despite what social media makes it seem, America isn’t the unbearable dystopia the internet makes it out to be. Do we have problems? Abso-fucking-lutely, more than most first world countries, but not so much that it’s sensible for most to uproot their whole lives to emigrate.
As a European, I would make 3-4x in my job if I was American. Of course somethings would be more expensive (education, healthcare, housing). Personally I would be better in states. I would still not want my county to change to states, because that inequality is not good for the whole country.
middle-upper middle class in America = rich in Europe.
I took a 50% pay cut to move to Europe. I’ll probably move back.
Edit: the €200 uninsured hospital visit when I got here before my public insurance activated Was nice though. Actually finding a doctor here who can see me on a time scale not measured in Quarters is a problem though. Also drug availability for my issues is real as the public insurance doesn’t offer a lot of them. It’s still marginally better than the US and a lot cheaper but fuck me I need my medication or to see the doctor more than 3-4 times a year for them to adjust it.
Oh also the lack of AC given climate change is a huge problem. The BS about better insulation is just that. You end up roasting in an oven. The insulation and construction methods are also impossible to do modifications to without a lot of time and specialized equipment. A contractor I hired burned out their impact driver just hanging artwork. The toilets suck too and are embedded in the wall so good luck servicing them.
Low end of Middle class, 50%, is still making a good college degreed salary (masters equivalent) in Europe. Middle end is making as much as a PhD in a tech company equivalent here.
So 1 in 2 have 6 years of college equivalent income and are making more than most Europeans, and 1 in 10 are comparably rich.
Comparably a good PhD (I. E. Employable) in America can pull 120-150k relatively easily, and 200k after a few years. Making as much as 3 times the European with the same education and experience.
E: European college costs are much lower though so it somewhat depends on how much debt you have to take too.
You’re reading that article completely wrong…the numbers you posted are medians for upper income earners. The median US worker does not have 6 years of higher ed. I think only 20-30% even have a bachelor’s.
The median income in the US is 50k as of 2022. The 90th percentile is 120k-130k.
Those are disgustingly low for not having universal health or any social safety net like the rest of the industrialized world.
50k is more than most Europeans make with 3-6 years of education… That’s my point.
It is low, but the take home in Europe is even lower like 25-30k, 60k before taxes with years of education, and you’re still paying €300 each month for public health insurance which takes up 5-10% of your income.
Some of my coworkers with PHDs and post docs and 5-10 years are only pulling 90k before taxes. An electric bike for example still costs €3-4k, and they have to pay for registration and insurance on it.
I had to wait 2.5 months for a simple blood test panel after seeing my doctor which took 2 months from scheduling.
In the US it was always same day at a Lab Corp outlet or on site. Cost a lot but I’d get results into the issue at least. The hospital here in Europe did a whole panel the same day I went to the ER…but my doctor didn’t want to bother getting it from them. And imaged me twice too, but again the doctor didn’t bother pulling those and ordered some months away.
Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, and Greece on the construction methods, AC, and Toliet. Haven’t been to Spain in a few years but they are suffering in the heatwave. Italy was 80+F late night last night when I was in Rome.
Healthcare wise my home region has some of the best on the continent. Perks of being the HQ of a national champion of the largest economy on the continent. If I have an emergency the hospital is very well equipped to handle patients from the nearby plants. Was more modern than any hospital I ever saw in the US.
I’ll see France in the next few months along with the Netherlands and Belgium. I’m not expecting things to be much different.
The Baltic and Nordic countries still have a mostly cold climate, so maybe things are better there, I’ll visit. In my neck of the woods it just never stops raining which has been a mixed bag.
If we want to compare incomes outside of my area than it’s even more extremely in favor of the US. I was basing my comparison on my employer’s payscales along with IG Metall (largest Union in Germany). We have some of the highest pays on the continent.
The literal only exceptions cost of living wise are cities like Munich which are comparable to NYC, LA, and SF but still cheaper from the time I’ve spent visiting it. I lived in all three of the aforementioned American cities for years.
Money buys quality of life and access to distractions thay may or may not make you happy.
My companies’ Pension plan for retirement is one of the best ones left and still pays comparably dog shit to an IRA and 401k. It’s irrelevant to me because I’m here to do work that makes me happy.
I certainly enjoy eating at the fanciest restaurant in the area every week because it’s what I used to pay for dog shit delivery in SF.
I can travel whenever I want, etc.
The only thing I’m unhappy about is not being in the same timezone as most of my friends.
Edit : like shit, my Mexican intern is struggling with his visa and might need a €10k loan from me to stay in Europe and it’s nice I can actually give him that. It’s untenable for the rest of the native European people on my team to even entertain such a thing, that was 1 month salary for me years ago in LA.
I don’t think that’s true at all. Your middle class percentage is tiny compared to most of Europe, and while you also earn a bit more, that money goes to a much stronger social safety net in most of Europe, too (at least in our more successful countries).
I would also wager that middle class workers are more comfortable here, because of guaranteed 5-7 weeks holiday, 37 hour work weeks (for the vast majority), guaranteed parental leave, and just generally a very unionized job market.
For real, I didn’t know how badly until recently. I accidentally overheard a “retention” discussion where I found out I make over twice what a peer in London does. Damn. I do live in a high cost of living city, but I understand London is expensive too
I make over $200k in a retail sales job…it’s very specialized but still retail sales. No college. I live very well here in the US. Perhaps I could move to Europe and make this sort of money with only my drive to sell, but I’d doubt it. Also family …I love my family and see them often.
Hi there. American here. I am actively learning both French and Dutch in case shit really hits the fan here in the states so I could potentially move to Europe.
Dutch here; while learning new languages is always a good thing, speaking Dutch is the least of your worries if you’d want to move here. Many expats don’t even try, since the majority of Dutchies is quite fluent in English.
If you’re serious, make sure you have job skills that are wanted over here so a company can sponsor you (and prove they cannot fulfill the vacancy). It’s basically how it works in the US too.
Or, if shit really hits the fan over there, you might be able to get a visa as a refugee :)
French is also useful because of Overseas France. Personally, I don’t necessarily want to move to Europe; I want to buy a sailboat and travel the world. French-speaking islands are relatively evenly-distributed all the way around it.
Life Pro Tip for that guy: You should understand what you’re talking about. The reason why all these European countries have these great social programs is because they actually are tough on immigration and don’t have the strain on social programs like we do. If it’s such a shithole, why are immigrants risking their lives to enter the US by any means available?
“why are immigrants risking their lives to enter the US by any means available?” if you want to talk about mexicans, then this is only immigration they can afford.
You mean to tell me we can completely afford all the social programs we have and the country actually isn’t in debt?
You do realize there are far more nationalities than Mexican entering the country, right? I know racist hear the word immigrant, and all they think is brown people, but come on. Do better.
We could if we taxed people properly, if corrupt officials didn’t pocket the money for their own, if money didn’t get thrown down the drain on all the admin salaries, if Medicare was legally allowed to negotiate prices, and if corrupt officials didn’t give money to their company owning friends in the name of “business aids”.
Our country spends double on healthcare compared to the next country down the list and yet we have worse health outcomes. Making it illegal for Medicare to negotiate prices absolutely has something to do with that. In addition "Anderson attributes [higher prices] to consolidation among hospitals and doctors’ practices, which allows them to demand higher prices.
Despite paying higher prices, Americans actually have less access to doctors, nurses and hospital beds. There are only 2.6 practicing doctors per 1,000 people in the US, compared to a median of 3.2 active physicians in the OECD, for instance. The efforts include raising deductibles to give consumers more incentive to shop around for health care services and paying doctors and hospitals based on patients’ health outcomes rather than for every service rendered."
Life Pro Tip for Americans: If you can save up for a plane ticket and go to another country. Europe would be my recommendation. It amazes me that there isn’t a mass exodus going on in the US. I don’t understand why anyone would possibly choose to live there tbh.
Good luck getting visas and residence permits.
I (Danish) am married to an American and it was easier for me to get a US green card, than for her to get a residence permit in Denmark. After living some time in the US we decided to move to Denmark and while it’s great to live here, it was a freaking painstaking process to get her a permit.
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Sure if your family came over here in the last 100 years. My family came over from Ireland somewhere around the famine, it’s too far back, I’ve checked. Y’all need to stop telling us its so easy to just move out of the us, it’s fucking not.
And even better, you’ll still owe taxes in the US when you’re gone.
IIRC, you can subtract the taxes you pay to the other country, so it’s not as if you’re double-taxed.
Honestly didn’t know that. Thanks for the info.
We are stuck here
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Could you maybe go over the process for how you got Italian citizenship? Trying to go through the process now with my fiancée and it’s… a lot (neither of us speaks Italian either).
Specifically, how did you go about requesting documents from Italy? How did you know which civil registry to request from? What if I can’t find the civil registry for the state her descendant is from?
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Wait. What? German citizenship is ancestry based. You should be eligible. You might need to drop the US citizenship though, but I’m not an expert.
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Jesus, just make it a whites only test and be honest.
As if “europe” just hands out working visas to americans
Europe isn’t a country and it’s not always easy to just move to another country. You have to actually be desirable to have in the country to even be considered.
That’s kind of the big problem with a lot of the Americans talking about moving to Europe for benefits. They lack these benefits because their jobs aren’t specialized or well paid, and European countries aren’t likely to accept their visa applications. Outside of marrying a European national, the best path is probably collective bargaining in the states.
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Also just packing up and leaving means leaving behind all your family, friends, possessions. Very probably you’ll have to practically start your career over from a much lower stage, learn a whole new language and live as an outsider in a culture you’re unfamiliar with.
In addition, the people who would most benefit (the very poor with poor paying jobs that don’t have these benefits) are the least able to do so. It’s not just a plane ticket, you need lawyers to help you navigate the process.
And the reality is that despite what social media makes it seem, America isn’t the unbearable dystopia the internet makes it out to be. Do we have problems? Abso-fucking-lutely, more than most first world countries, but not so much that it’s sensible for most to uproot their whole lives to emigrate.
This also ignores that since 2008 there has been a large exodus. Americans are leaving whenever they get the chance.
As a European, I would make 3-4x in my job if I was American. Of course somethings would be more expensive (education, healthcare, housing). Personally I would be better in states. I would still not want my county to change to states, because that inequality is not good for the whole country.
For the average person, America is much better than most places in Europe.
For people who aren’t doing as well, though, it’s much worse.
I think you’re vastly overestimating how well-off “average” is in the US.
middle-upper middle class in America = rich in Europe.
I took a 50% pay cut to move to Europe. I’ll probably move back.
Edit: the €200 uninsured hospital visit when I got here before my public insurance activated Was nice though. Actually finding a doctor here who can see me on a time scale not measured in Quarters is a problem though. Also drug availability for my issues is real as the public insurance doesn’t offer a lot of them. It’s still marginally better than the US and a lot cheaper but fuck me I need my medication or to see the doctor more than 3-4 times a year for them to adjust it.
Oh also the lack of AC given climate change is a huge problem. The BS about better insulation is just that. You end up roasting in an oven. The insulation and construction methods are also impossible to do modifications to without a lot of time and specialized equipment. A contractor I hired burned out their impact driver just hanging artwork. The toilets suck too and are embedded in the wall so good luck servicing them.
Upper middle class is the top 10%…So yea, 9 out of 10 people aren’t doing so great.
Low end of Middle class, 50%, is still making a good college degreed salary (masters equivalent) in Europe. Middle end is making as much as a PhD in a tech company equivalent here.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/
So 1 in 2 have 6 years of college equivalent income and are making more than most Europeans, and 1 in 10 are comparably rich.
Comparably a good PhD (I. E. Employable) in America can pull 120-150k relatively easily, and 200k after a few years. Making as much as 3 times the European with the same education and experience.
E: European college costs are much lower though so it somewhat depends on how much debt you have to take too.
You’re reading that article completely wrong…the numbers you posted are medians for upper income earners. The median US worker does not have 6 years of higher ed. I think only 20-30% even have a bachelor’s.
The median income in the US is 50k as of 2022. The 90th percentile is 120k-130k.
Those are disgustingly low for not having universal health or any social safety net like the rest of the industrialized world.
50k is more than most Europeans make with 3-6 years of education… That’s my point.
It is low, but the take home in Europe is even lower like 25-30k, 60k before taxes with years of education, and you’re still paying €300 each month for public health insurance which takes up 5-10% of your income.
Some of my coworkers with PHDs and post docs and 5-10 years are only pulling 90k before taxes. An electric bike for example still costs €3-4k, and they have to pay for registration and insurance on it.
For me at least wait times for healthcare always seem to be shorter outside the US. Nearly 2 months for a CT scan vs same day
I had to wait 2.5 months for a simple blood test panel after seeing my doctor which took 2 months from scheduling.
In the US it was always same day at a Lab Corp outlet or on site. Cost a lot but I’d get results into the issue at least. The hospital here in Europe did a whole panel the same day I went to the ER…but my doctor didn’t want to bother getting it from them. And imaged me twice too, but again the doctor didn’t bother pulling those and ordered some months away.
I think you are confusing one European country with Europe.
Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, and Greece on the construction methods, AC, and Toliet. Haven’t been to Spain in a few years but they are suffering in the heatwave. Italy was 80+F late night last night when I was in Rome.
Healthcare wise my home region has some of the best on the continent. Perks of being the HQ of a national champion of the largest economy on the continent. If I have an emergency the hospital is very well equipped to handle patients from the nearby plants. Was more modern than any hospital I ever saw in the US.
I’ll see France in the next few months along with the Netherlands and Belgium. I’m not expecting things to be much different.
The Baltic and Nordic countries still have a mostly cold climate, so maybe things are better there, I’ll visit. In my neck of the woods it just never stops raining which has been a mixed bag.
If we want to compare incomes outside of my area than it’s even more extremely in favor of the US. I was basing my comparison on my employer’s payscales along with IG Metall (largest Union in Germany). We have some of the highest pays on the continent.
The literal only exceptions cost of living wise are cities like Munich which are comparable to NYC, LA, and SF but still cheaper from the time I’ve spent visiting it. I lived in all three of the aforementioned American cities for years.
What about happiness and quality of life?
Money buys quality of life and access to distractions thay may or may not make you happy.
My companies’ Pension plan for retirement is one of the best ones left and still pays comparably dog shit to an IRA and 401k. It’s irrelevant to me because I’m here to do work that makes me happy.
I certainly enjoy eating at the fanciest restaurant in the area every week because it’s what I used to pay for dog shit delivery in SF.
I can travel whenever I want, etc.
The only thing I’m unhappy about is not being in the same timezone as most of my friends.
Edit : like shit, my Mexican intern is struggling with his visa and might need a €10k loan from me to stay in Europe and it’s nice I can actually give him that. It’s untenable for the rest of the native European people on my team to even entertain such a thing, that was 1 month salary for me years ago in LA.
I don’t think that’s true at all. Your middle class percentage is tiny compared to most of Europe, and while you also earn a bit more, that money goes to a much stronger social safety net in most of Europe, too (at least in our more successful countries).
I would also wager that middle class workers are more comfortable here, because of guaranteed 5-7 weeks holiday, 37 hour work weeks (for the vast majority), guaranteed parental leave, and just generally a very unionized job market.
If you have $20 in your pocket, and no debt you are wealthier than most Americans. The average person in the US isn’t doing too great
For real, I didn’t know how badly until recently. I accidentally overheard a “retention” discussion where I found out I make over twice what a peer in London does. Damn. I do live in a high cost of living city, but I understand London is expensive too
I make over $200k in a retail sales job…it’s very specialized but still retail sales. No college. I live very well here in the US. Perhaps I could move to Europe and make this sort of money with only my drive to sell, but I’d doubt it. Also family …I love my family and see them often.
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Maybe it’s not actually that bad living here in terms of reality?
Hi there. American here. I am actively learning both French and Dutch in case shit really hits the fan here in the states so I could potentially move to Europe.
Dutch here; while learning new languages is always a good thing, speaking Dutch is the least of your worries if you’d want to move here. Many expats don’t even try, since the majority of Dutchies is quite fluent in English.
If you’re serious, make sure you have job skills that are wanted over here so a company can sponsor you (and prove they cannot fulfill the vacancy). It’s basically how it works in the US too.
Or, if shit really hits the fan over there, you might be able to get a visa as a refugee :)
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French is also useful because of Overseas France. Personally, I don’t necessarily want to move to Europe; I want to buy a sailboat and travel the world. French-speaking islands are relatively evenly-distributed all the way around it.
I currently speak German, Dutch, Japanese and am learning Italian… just in case (and I realised I really enjoy learning languages)
My career would take a hit in Europe. Just not doing the kinda work we are doing here
Life Pro Tip for that guy: You should understand what you’re talking about. The reason why all these European countries have these great social programs is because they actually are tough on immigration and don’t have the strain on social programs like we do. If it’s such a shithole, why are immigrants risking their lives to enter the US by any means available?
“Strain on social programs” lol.
“why are immigrants risking their lives to enter the US by any means available?” if you want to talk about mexicans, then this is only immigration they can afford.
You mean to tell me we can completely afford all the social programs we have and the country actually isn’t in debt?
You do realize there are far more nationalities than Mexican entering the country, right? I know racist hear the word immigrant, and all they think is brown people, but come on. Do better.
We could if we taxed people properly, if corrupt officials didn’t pocket the money for their own, if money didn’t get thrown down the drain on all the admin salaries, if Medicare was legally allowed to negotiate prices, and if corrupt officials didn’t give money to their company owning friends in the name of “business aids”.
Our country spends double on healthcare compared to the next country down the list and yet we have worse health outcomes. Making it illegal for Medicare to negotiate prices absolutely has something to do with that. In addition "Anderson attributes [higher prices] to consolidation among hospitals and doctors’ practices, which allows them to demand higher prices.
Despite paying higher prices, Americans actually have less access to doctors, nurses and hospital beds. There are only 2.6 practicing doctors per 1,000 people in the US, compared to a median of 3.2 active physicians in the OECD, for instance. The efforts include raising deductibles to give consumers more incentive to shop around for health care services and paying doctors and hospitals based on patients’ health outcomes rather than for every service rendered."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/08/politics/health-care-spending/index.html
And before anyone argues that appropriately taxing the rich will make them all leave:
https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/nov/20/if-you-tax-the-rich-they-wont-leave-us-data-contradicts-millionaires-threats