• originalfrozenbanana@lemm.ee
    9415·
    10 months ago

    But who hasn’t killed their citizens in a simple misunderstanding? Or, if that doesn’t work, America Also Bad! \s

    • RiikkaTheIcePrincess@kbin.social
      592·
      10 months ago

      America Also Bad!

      Seems like they usually leave out the “also” because apparently two things can’t be bad at the same time. Wouldn’t it be great to live in a world where only one thing is bad? I expect it’d be simpler, at least.

    • JustEnoughDucks
      6010·
      10 months ago

      I mean, China fucking sucks and is a shit authoritarian statist government but let’s not pretend America hasn’t done similar things.

      Ever heard the stories of how America won the right to unions?

      • Columbine Mine Massacre

      • Ludlow Massacre

      • Thibodaux Massacre

      • Battle of Blair Mountain

      • Herrin Massacre

      Hundreds of people killed in total because they were protesting.

      The difference in outcome is that back then the technology was more of a level playing field.

      • shadowspirit@lemmy.world
        5416·
        10 months ago

        Can always rely on there being at least one person … “but the USA did XYZ.” Doesn’t change what happened in 1989.

        • JustEnoughDucks
          188·
          10 months ago

          No it doesn’t. But the same people who whine and cry about people using whataboutism in favor of China do the EXACT same thing in favor of the US.

          They are both shit. Everyone is tired of each side pretending that only one side is shit.

          • PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee
            22·
            10 months ago

            Go look up to see what China did during the great leap forward and cultural revolution. They killed about 30 million of their own people. I would like you to post a source proving that the United States murdered 30 million of its own people within the past 150 years, as well as persecuting tens of millions of people and sending millions of children from cities to be reeducated with forced labor on camps after being separated from their parents. Hundreds of thousands of intellectuals were murdered for being… Intellectuals.

            The only thing that comes close was slavery and the Japanese internment during world War II. However, slavery was abolished over 150 years ago, and during the Japanese internment families were generally kept together and they were not forcibly reeducated.

            • JustEnoughDucks
              11·
              10 months ago

              “Please tell me a time when.this country did terrible things b-b-but only in this certain half of the country’s existence!! Otherwise it’s cheating!!1!”

              Conveniently chose a time right where you can ignore the Slavery and the Trail of Tears (% population wise that was just as bad). Not to mention the mass Native American “reeducation” and ripping them away from their families to get a “proper white education”

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

              https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools

              Every government has done terrible things. The US, China, and Russia are among the worst. We can argue about what is “worse.” But that is completely subjective. China literally just did much of what the US did, but on a larger scale 150 years later and with different technology.

              Arguably Russia was the worst of them all, but literally all 3 are bad. America pulled itself out of that era and into corporate indetured servitude era of corporations committing genocides and coups in other countries. Personally I think that China is worse than the US and Russia dwarfs both of them, but just because one is maybe marginally worse doesn’t mean the other wasn’t/isn’t bad.

          • Syrc@lemmy.world
            1717·
            10 months ago

            Except they’re nowhere nearly comparable. The US is pretty bad but China is an authoritarian state with internet censorship and state-controlled companies.

            The “America also bad” argument feels like a mass murderer saying “well you stabbed a guy 10 years ago, you’re no different!”.

            • diffaldo@lemm.ee
              43·
              10 months ago

              Do u know banana republics, thats a rad story. i think u should look up what usa have done to south american contries.

        • atx_aquarian@lemmy.world
          32·
          10 months ago

          The one they replied to may have been criticizing “whataboutism”, but it could also be (mis)interpreted as implying the USA has not had similar problems.

          But who hasn’t killed their citizens in a simple misunderstanding? Or, if that doesn’t work, America Also Bad! \s

    • Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works
      1·
      5 months ago

      Well, the citizens they killed were literally firing on them and killed around 150 soldiers. Meanwhile the military for the most part did not have guns. Not saying it is justified even then to use military force on striking workers, but a hell of a lot more justified than western media claims. Oh yeah, and literally no college students died that day, as well as nobody within a mile of Tianenmen Square.

  • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
    8616·
    10 months ago

    Ah yes the one demonstration to push a government to the left and organize labor that tankies don’t like acknowledging

    • Noughmad@programming.dev
      494·
      10 months ago

      No, there was another one, interestingly at the exact same time, in Poland. They don’t like that one either.

        • Noughmad@programming.dev
          33·
          10 months ago

          The Solidarity movement, started in 1980 as a series of labor strikes, formed into a large trade union and then a political movement demanding workers’ rights, actual worker control over means of production, and similar socialist policies. It finally forced and won a public election in 1989 (on the very same day of the Tiananmen square crackdown) which in turn led to the end of communist (and Russian) rule in Poland.

            • DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe
              101·
              10 months ago

              Tankies when the people being told heirarchy is bad and steals the value of your labor when people actually believe it and try to abolish it:

            • Touching_Grass@lemmy.world
              2·
              10 months ago

              When oliver Anthony sings that he’s an old world man struggling to live in a new world, all I think about is how strong the old world fought to unionize the work force. I didn’t even know about it until this year. The 1900s labour movement was intense and interesing. Especially reading about it from the future which helps put a lot of current politics into perspective.

          • DrYazman@lemmy.world
            4·
            10 months ago

            a political movement demanding workers’ rights, actual worker control over means of production, and similar socialist policies.

            They demanded this, won, and then ignored all of it and introduced neoliberal capitalism pretty much straight away?

    • The dogspaw @midwest.socialEnglish
      2117·
      10 months ago

      Actually Taiwan is China as in its the actual legitimate government of China not the occupiers in Beijing

      • lud@lemm.ee
        131·
        10 months ago

        I wouldn’t call the ROG illegitimate since they won the civil war and they are recognised by pretty much every country in the world.

        That doesn’t mean I like them more though.

        Edit: PRC not ROG lol.

      • triplenadir@lemmygrad.ml
        88·
        10 months ago

        oh yes the far right nationalists who lost the civil war are the legitimate government.

        i’m an anarchist. how would you describe your politics?

  • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    7314·
    10 months ago

    As of the writing of this comment, 3 tankies have seen this post

    Edit: T+15h: 35 tankies (829 up). And 5 of those saw this comment.

      • Hubi@feddit.de
        632·
        10 months ago

        I don’t see any reason to care about that as long as they aren’t forcing their opinions on anyone tbh.

        • persolb@lemmy.ml
          311·
          10 months ago

          This. Unless your use/purchase directly supports something you disagree with, people shouldn’t be worried so much. Companies and organizations are huge. They are all going to contain shitty people.

          If you are on the internet, you have no choice but to indirectly supporting shitty people.

          If you are worried about that do actual politics, not this ‘you eat ChikFilA you monster’ type shit.0

          • AlexWIWA@lemmy.mlEnglish
            3·
            10 months ago

            Yup. And they literally gave us the tools to take our toys and go home to make our own fun if we don’t like the way they run Lemmy.ml.

      • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        3210·
        10 months ago

        Oh I know all about that. It’s one of the reasons I enjoy clowning on tankies on lemmy.ml so hard.

        Fun fact: the .ml TLD is officially designated as belonging to Mali; the lemmy devs chose it as an acronym for “Marxist-Leninist”. This caused problems very recently when Mali suddenly re-exerted control of their TLD, where previously they did not take an active hand in its management.

        I’ll copy the top comment there, because it’s actually kind of important if you’re at all into web infra or self-hosting:

        Using ccTLDs when you have no relationship with the country is just asking for trouble. Comes across as naive and unprofessional, although I’ve seen many serious infrastructure built upon .co and .io names.

      • ImFresh3x@sh.itjust.works
        21·
        10 months ago

        I don’t see why I should care, as long as their not assholes, not breaking their own rules, and not abusing their powers as devs.

      • a1_15@lemmy.world
        3·
        10 months ago

        hexbear alt spotted!! this is the most popular comment that those fascits/bigots/neo-terrorists post in any thread that makes them salty!

      • Psythik@lemm.ee
        78·
        10 months ago

        You’re not a real Marxist; you’re a Fascist cosplaying as one. Anyone who spends 5 minutes on Hexbear can figure it out. You’re not fooling anyone.

        Edit: Lots of people replying to me who are in denial, I see.

        • abbotsbury@lemmy.world
          22·
          10 months ago

          I’ve seen every post of theirs in this thread and nothing seems fascist to me, perhaps you merely disagree with them.

        • Catradora-Stalinism☭@lemmygrad.ml
          69·
          10 months ago

          fooling

          You really think that, don’t you?

          Maybe I’m just tired of hearing of these lies, I know china didn’t do it, and I know the story is a myth concocted from bits of reality and western media embellishing and skewing details. I’m really just trying to get a rise out of ya’ll.

          But how are we fascists? You think we are lying at all hours even when you aren’t looking? It would be easier to just be a fascist if that was the truth. Those movements already exist: Nazbols, MAGA communists, and the like. Why aren’t we them? Why do we always separate ourselves and constantly denounce them? Why do we go through what would be a ridiculous amount of effort to pretend to be communists? Pretend to be leftists? This is a ridiculous assertion in every way!

          I dare you to spend 5 minutes on hexbear, minutes not trying to hate us, and just look around. I may be scum yes, but I don’t think they are, far from it in fact. Maybe you’ll see that, or you’ll just keep being the way you are:

          Blind and hateful, lashing out at whatever you don’t understand.

    • NotSpez@lemm.ee
      224·
      10 months ago

      .ml readers interpretation: Tanks (fighting for democracy) brutally killed students

      • socsa@lemmy.ml
        61·
        10 months ago

        Don’t lump us all in with those naive authoritarian children. Some of us believe the internet deserves a better class of communist.

    • Aria@lemmygrad.ml
      24·
      10 months ago

      Or in reality, tanks stop, the driver gets out and talks to the guy.

          • LittleLordLimerick@lemm.ee
            206·
            10 months ago

            No. how could I? Armored tanks are EXCLUSIVELY implements of peace, they are NEVER used lethally or to inflict harm. The Chinese military DEFINITELY brought in armored tanks for peaceful, humanitarian reasons.

          • abraxas@lemmy.mlEnglish
            114·
            10 months ago

            I mean, there is that photo of a bunch of crushed human bodies under tank treads that nobody likes to reference.

            As it’s not NSFL, I’m not posting. After seeing that image, I lost all doubt that the massacre happened exactly as we know.

            And no, I don’t intend this to convince you. I don’t think seeing the photo would convince you either.

              • abraxas@lemmy.mlEnglish
                21·
                10 months ago

                No, sorry. As I said a few times, I don’t keep a file of NSFL grotesque photos like that. If the photos already posted in this thread aren’t enough, my adding the other won’t be. If you can’t convince them with the mountains of clear and simple evidence, you can’t convince Holocaust Deniers, Flat Earthers, or Tienanmen Square deniers with any evidence no matter how disgusting.

        • pivot_root@lemmy.world
          910·
          10 months ago

          Not denying it happened, but I couldn’t find any images of such. Although it won’t do much to change the minds of some people, linking or embedding the actual image would make your statement much stronger :)

          • abraxas@lemmy.mlEnglish
            93·
            10 months ago

            Someone already produced the “crushed bicycle” picture here with a couple crushed/mutilated bodies. It’s not the only one, but it strikes a chord of being the least NSFL while still proving the event.

            • pivot_root@lemmy.world
              21·
              10 months ago

              Looks like they were posted here after my comment. Pro-CCP people are probably still going to find a way to justify it for the greater good or something like that, but at least now they can’t deny there are photos.

              • abraxas@lemmy.mlEnglish
                2·
                10 months ago

                I’m getting bugged for the other photo heavy now, by people telling me they can give back with photos of “the mob burning people”. Pro-CCP people don’t even consider the basically-confession and disagreement of the leader of the Communist party (which led to his long-term house-arrest).

    • DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe
      202·
      10 months ago

      According to my aunt, whose parents fled the Cultural Revolution when she was a teenager:

      It’s like if Chinese people kept trying to give you shit about the Kent State massacre and not Vietnam itself.

    • zanzo@lemmy.world
      171·
      10 months ago

      From my conversations with mainland Chinese, they often tout the line that the US was somehow involved, so it was partly an excusable defense of the homeland against dangerously co-opted students. That said, most acknowledge that it was pretty bad. But these are also well-educated Chinese working abroad, so I assume the majority of Chinese don’t know much.

      One story I heard retold by an English teacher working in Nanjing that I used to know was about the experience of one of the people involved in the protests…or at least they were an academic in Beijing at the time of the massacre. They were really depressed 20 years later and felt that nobody around them, particularly their students, knew anything.

    • socsa@lemmy.ml
      162·
      10 months ago

      The people I have spoken to in China understand something happened, and most of them know that it was the suppression of a student protest movement. From there the knowledge diverges as to what kind of protest movement and how violent was the suppression and whether it was justified. My family will kind of halfheartedly repeat some version of the party line but acknowledge it was a fucked up situation, and they also understand that the censorship surrounding it is awkward and unnecessary.

      Generally the Chinese I have spoken to are mostly aware of and opposed to the CCP’s censorship, but they also don’t really like to talk about it for obvious reasons.

  • Savvy95@lemmy.world
    9·
    10 months ago

    For those not around when that happened, i remember it this way, after 20 years of booze, weed & hookers:

    The student protest was extremely peaceful and organized. There were student delegations that would report up to student representatives, educatio delegation, housing delegation, for example. The representatives were negotiating with Party people. It was unclear at the time if the Party people were indicative of the top brass. But there was a worldwide feeling something good and right might be changing in China. If I recall correctly this went on for weeks, so the implications were setting in.

    Then it all changed when the Fire Nation attacked.

    What the video & still represent is not 1 man facing a line of tanks. It a culmination of a generation of students frustrated enough but clever enough to find a way to negotiate a change and when the Army came in they knew they failed. The world knew they failed. The question was how badly that failure was. There were a few days when nothing happened after this video. Then it happened all at once. And the rest as they say is History – repression, violence, killing, abductions, lost family members, and rewriting history.

    Like the Velvet Revolutions of the Middle East, it was a short time of hope for a better future, for the students & for their nation.

    That feeling stays & that feeling is what China wants their populace to forget - and you forget by meming this historic picture without context.

    P.S I don’t know if the man was ever found out, but I hope he stays anonymous.