• mommykink@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    “Oh you’re an anarchist? Then solve literally one problem that doesn’t create ten other, worse problems. Seriously, just one. Please”

    • Napain@lemmy.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      imagine there is a evil capitalist who makes your fav social network unfree. and there is a anarchisticly organized fediverse that gives you a save haven from it.

        • Amaltheamannen@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Anarchism is not the absense of rules, it’s about free association, cooperation and avoiding unjust hierarchies.

          • cristo@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            That is not the definition of anarchy. Anarchy is defined by the absence of laws and structure in a society. What you are describing is uptopian, or the wikipedia definition of anarchy, which is completely incorrect.

            • AccountMaker@slrpnk.net
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              1 year ago

              Errico Malatesta, Anarchy - “The word Anarchy comes from the Greek and its literal meaning is without government: the condition of a people who live without a constituted authority, without government”

              Peter Kropotkin, Anarchism - “Anarchism is the name given to a principle or theory of life and conduct under which society is conceived without government - harmony in such a society being obtained, not by submission to law, or by obedience to any authority, but by free agreements concluded between the various groups […]”

              The main point is a lack of vertical hierarchy, that nobody is being subjugated or forced. For a society to function, it needs cooperation, and anarchical coorperation means that it’s done willingly by all the parties involved, without any compulsion. You can still have structures (as in roles people play in a society). Orwelll wrote in “Homage to Catalonia” how the army he was in had regular soldiers and officers, but the officers couldn’t “order” the soldiers to do anything, and they often argued and explained why they needed the soldiers to do whatever. A wild free-for-all where some strong and brutish people can form a gang and do whatever they want with others is how some anarchists see governments.

              So it’s technically true that there are no “laws” because there is no government to punish you if you don’t follow them, and there’s no vertical structure where someone is your boss who you must obey, but people might get a wrong picture with just that, so I provided a bit more context. I’m not an expert on anarchist theory by any means, but it’s not Hobbes’ natural condition of mankind.

        • perennial@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Well technically each user could have their own instance if they choose to do so. They’d be free to interact with who they choose to interact with and block who they wouldn’t want to interact with. They’d be free from any outside hierarchy. Many user choose not to do this, but that doesn’t mean the system is inherently hierarchical.

          (I’m excluding the fact that not every user has the capital to host an instance)

          • cristo@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Its still not anarchy, its federation. Anarchy is 8chan or any of the random TOR image boards. Lemmy is still a clearnet site and is subject to the overarching clearnet rules. If it wasnt, lemmy would be a very different place.

              • cristo@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                No, the wikipedia definition of anarchy is completely wrong and is edited by actors who seek to change its definition. It honestly reads like some cope. Anomie is defined by the breakdown of society, it wouldnt fit the defition of unregulated by default society that is non-clearnet forums. The classical definition of anarchy, which is the most correct definition, is what I am describing here. The absence of rules and societal structure, pure lawlessness.

      • nxdefiant@startrek.website
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        1 year ago

        Anarchy has a well defined meaning.

        This is my biggest problem with your phrasing, and I know that it just boils down to semantics - and that feels like absurd reductionism, is that “anarchisticly organized” is essentially a matter/antimatter reaction of a phrase that leaves the reader with nothing of substance.

        Now for something truly controversial:

        Capitalism is the purest form of anarchy.

        • irmoz@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          “anarchisticly organized” is essentially a matter/antimatter reaction of a phrase

          Mate… i have to wonder if you’ve read anything at all. In your life.

          Probably the most common thing said among anarchists is “organise, organise!!” Anarchists are all about people organising.

          capitalism is the purest form of anarchy

          Controversial doesn’t mean stupid. Capitalism is antithetical to anarchy. It inevitably and irresistibly trends toward monopoly, no matter how you slice it.

          It also cannot exist without a coercive state apparatus, and in absence of one, will make itself the state, essentially reinventing feudalism.

          • nxdefiant@startrek.website
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            1 year ago

            Not to gloss over anything you said, but I’m going to address the core of it.

            Capitalism is an emergent property of human behavior. It didn’t fall out of the sky, we invented, of our own will, and to the peril of many. How can any collection of humans, however organized they may be, prevent whatever their ideal state of anarchy is from changing into capitalism over time? I feel that it’s a very important question for anarchy because if any society wishes to have its members enjoy max freedom, the very first question that should be asked is “are we defining a cap on freedoms, or are we not? If we do, should we enforce it, and if so, how?”, the subtext being how to execute the answers without immediately establishing a state. (This you stated, essentially, and we agree)

            And keep in mind that what I may or may not know doesn’t impact the question at all. The question stands on its own. How does anarchy survive the human condition, and humanity’s predispositions?

            • irmoz@reddthat.com
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              1 year ago

              Capitalism is an emergent property of human behavior

              This sounds deep at first, but upon thinking for a second is a truism on the lines of “that’s just the way the world works”. Everything humans have done as a society is an emergent property of human behaviour. Capitalism, mercantilism, fascism, communism, anarchism, feudalism, slave society, empire… and so on. These are all also emergent properties of human behaviour.

              It didn’t fall out of the sky, we invented, of our own will, and to the peril of many.

              This also is just a truism. Yes, of course it was invented. It’s a social system. These aren’t inherent. I didn’t claim otherwise.

              How can any collection of humans, however organized they may be, prevent whatever their ideal state of anarchy is from changing into capitalism over time?

              …By being organised and connected and educated. A society that has managed to erode the state and revolutionise society to live without hierarchy would be fundamentally different to the one now. To extrapolate behaviour in that society based on any behaviour you see in this one is fraught and must undergo further analysis based on the material conditions. But, based on anarchist, communist etc theory I’ve been exposed to thus far, such a society would not even by tempted by capitalism because - what is the point? We’ve moved past that. It’s in our history books and we look at it the same way that today we see feudalism.

              I feel that it’s a very important question for anarchy because if any society wishes to have its members enjoy max freedom, the very first question that should be asked is “are we defining a cap on freedoms, or are we not? If we do, should we enforce it, and if so, how?”

              This seems rather loaded. What do you mean by a “cap on freedoms”? Right after mentioning capitalism, it seems you’re equating capitalism, or maybe the concept of private property, with freedom.

              the subtext being how to execute the answers without immediately establishing a state. (This you stated, essentially, and we agree)

              There is no need for a state. People can organise together and make decisions together, then disperse to execute those decisions.

              And keep in mind that what I may or may not know doesn’t impact the question at all.

              Not sure what this means or how to address it.

              How does anarchy survive the human condition, and humanity’s predispositions?

              Define for me the human condition, and what you mean by humanity’s “predispositions”. These are not solid concepts.

        • Gelcube69@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          “anarchy has a well defined meaning” it does, and if you had read anything about it before posting this you would know what it is.

        • iHUNTcriminals@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          No… Capitalism isn’t… I’d say the underground/drug world is though… And if you’ve experienced that then you will quickly understand life is war above anything else.

            • iHUNTcriminals@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              Isn’t that just freedom? Like …no one ever is going to homogenize humanity into an ideology… Imo. (Without fascist actions)

              That’s why I just try to embrace chaos and maneuver with it… Like just be… Just exist

              I see faith in chaos as essentially being what religious people call faith in God. Except they misunderstand due to “God” being abused by the churches.

              • nxdefiant@startrek.website
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                1 year ago

                ok, some points, to define things:

                Humans lived in stateless societies for longer than we’ve had recorded history.

                States, social hierarchy, classes, money, religion, etc. are observed human behavior. They are the very result of humanity maneuvering with the chaos.

                We use words like Capitalism as the names for models that describes some subset of human behavior.

                (We see some groups of humans pooling the results of labor for redistribution and call the various forms of this different flavors of socialism.

                We see other groups pooling the results of labor into separate pools fland segregating humans into groups defined by access to these various pools. We call these various forms of capitalism.)

                We also see some groups force the behaviors described by various models directly on their members, (which are usually selected by physical proximity), through various means like manipulation, violence, coercion, enticement, etc. Sometimes this leads to a stable state, and we call these States, and sometimes it doesn’t and we call these Failed States. When their collective commonality isn’t geographic though, we have various names for them too (religion, for example).

                So, although Freedom (the general human ability to make choices and act on them) is the default human state, “Unregulated Capitalism” is the model that most closely describes the behavior observed in underground/black markets. It is the state that emerges when humans make the choice to engage in commerce without regulation: capital gets allocated according to the laws of natural selection instead of supply and demand, but the system is still dependent on the supply and demand. To put it another way, this is Natural Capitalism: The “I have all the capital because no one is strong enough to take it away from me” kind of capitalism.

                • irmoz@reddthat.com
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                  1 year ago

                  “Unregulated Capitalism” is the model that most closely describes the behavior observed in underground/black markets.

                  Yes.

                  It is the state that emerges when humans make the choice to engage in commerce without regulation: capital gets allocated according to the laws of natural selection instead of supply and demand

                  No. Commerce without regulation existed for millennia, as you have correctly addressed here:

                  Humans lived in stateless societies for longer than we’ve had recorded history.

                  The black market is indeed commerce without regulation. That’s the unregulated part. But it isn’t just that. It is also a hierarchical system with privately accumulating capital at the tops of a steadily diminishing number of pyramids - that’s the capitalism part - with no overarching authority to regulate it. In short, unregulated capitalism.

                • iHUNTcriminals@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  Great post! I literally think you might be the first person that’s ever responded to my talk of chaos without offended defensiveness.

    • Gelcube69@reddthat.com
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      1 year ago

      Okay, but thats literally the problem with authority. Any problem it can solve can also go unchecked in creating 10 more.

    • irmoz@reddthat.com
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      1 year ago

      Easy

      Inequality is caused by hierarchy

      Remove hierarchy

      Inequality is solved

        • irmoz@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          Not really, because gravity is a law of physics, while hierarchy is an arbitrary social construct. If you think it’s natural to have people above you, that might be your kink, but not mine.

          • Crashumbc@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            They’re both about as easy to arbitrarily remove… Your kink seems to be fantasy so get out your wand and get to work.

            • irmoz@reddthat.com
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              1 year ago

              Social constructs are infinitely easier to remove than fundamental forces of the universe. Don’t hyperbolise.

              • Crashumbc@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Actually, its extremely accurate if you consider every aspect of nature is built off hierarchies. You think you can just wave a wand and remove it when every aspect of society is built off it. You’re either extremely naive or just stupid.

                • irmoz@reddthat.com
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                  1 year ago

                  Nature also reproduces primarily through rape. Think twice before learning from nature.

                  You think you can just wave a wand and remove it when every aspect of society is built off it

                  Who mentioned wands?

        • irmoz@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          My dude

          They are monkeys

          We have a bit more intelligence and organisational skill than wild animals

          • mommykink@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            So you’re saying that, with our intelligence, we can organize ourselves better than animals and not fall into… anarchy?

            • irmoz@reddthat.com
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              1 year ago

              If we organised ourselves properly, that would be anarchy. “Fall into anarchy” suggests you believe anarchy means chaos and disorder. It doesn’t.

          • iHUNTcriminals@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            But you still need to for lack of better word force people to partake in mutual aid? Right? That’s what I don’t understand about these discussions.

            I tend to think more about chaos and war. Like chaos and war seems to be what life is regardless of any active governments.

            • irmoz@reddthat.com
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              you still need to for lack of better word force people to partake in mutual aid? Right?

              What makes you say this? You think, despite tens of thousands of years of evidence that humans work best as a cohesive unit, and naturally tend to do this, that humans can’t work together?

              • iHUNTcriminals@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                I’ve known a lot of criminals/thieves and people that ruin people’s lives on purpose. They don’t budge for anything. The type of people that would kick the shit out of you because you accidentally made the wrong face or smiled wrong. I’ve seen people fuck up lives just for their own entertainment. Its really made me question life and society.

                • irmoz@reddthat.com
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                  1 year ago

                  Yes, I also question society, and that is what I’m getting at. The society we have built actively encourages behaviour like this - we’re built around a zero sum game theory of success, where one person’s loss is another’s gain. Hyper individualistic ideology has eroded communities into pure atomised subjects with no connection to each other. We are taught and forced to only think of only ourselves, better only ourselves, further only our own careers, because any moment you take to help someone else, they are somehow “leeching” off of you. And, in a sense, they are, because of how we have set our society, economy, and political systems up. Those moments you take to help other people are moments you could be making money for yourself, or learning something for your own self improvement… And in a real sense could hurt you.

  • WetBeardHairs@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    Look I’m not saying we have to switch to a total lack of hierarchy immediately. I just want us to start at the top and eat our way down and see how that affects things.

    • Asafum
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      1 year ago

      (Researchers going over ancient Internet history): Wow there must have been some SERIOUS food crisis going on from 2000-20xx! There’s so much talk about cannibalism and guillotines!

  • socsa@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    On Lemmy, it’s more like “oh you’re an anarchist? You obviously haven’t read enough Lennin”

    • Gelcube69@reddthat.com
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      I’m entering my years as a senior anarchist, and I always find it funny when some in their 20’s who got their entire personality from a podcast tells me to read to read On Authority or State and Revolution or something. My dude, I actually read people I disagree with, do you? Because only someone that doesn’t would think those are profound criticisms.

      • iByteABit [he/him]@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        some in their 20’s who got their entire personality from a podcast

        You’re just creating this strawman because you disagree with the other side that is recommending you read about their beliefs, despite claiming that you read people you disagree with

            • Gelcube69@reddthat.com
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              It’s does because they are very basic criticisms to the point of being kind of insulting. It’s a akin to asking someone with clinical depression if they have tried vitamin d supplements. The suggestion itself demonstrates their own cluelessness.

      • irmoz@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        Same here, these people constantly complaining about “tankies” seem to vastly outnumber the alleged tankies in my experience

  • Mojojojo1993@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Pretty sure eating billionaires and pumping their Ill gotten gains into systems that help humanity would fix most issues. Kill off any greedy fucks

  • argv_minus_one@beehaw.org
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    1 year ago

    It doesn’t have to solve every problem, but it does have to result in a better world than we have now, which it won’t.

  • paysrenttobirds@sh.itjust.works
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    This meme applies to any ideology sufficiently removed from the current state of things. Ideologies are fun, but conversations that ignore how much work is required to transition get boring after a while.

    Which is why I think slowly eating our way down from the top is far more interesting and safe proposal than any pure ideology.

  • CthulhuDreamer@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    My house is on fire. I am gonna call firefighters.

    Anachrist: First you should dismantle capitalism.