“US and vassal states threaten to lock Iran out of moribund economic bloc and into up and coming new one.”
This is hilarious because Iran is already sanctioned to hell and back. G7 really has one tool and that’s it. So glad my country joined BRICS and made peace with Iran.
Reminds me of “you are only making it worse for yourself”
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I like the idea of economic incentives and I think they’re extremely effective, although the ones on the other end of them usually take years before they start to feel the full effects.
What people seem to not be noticing is that effectively the Global North is sanctioning itself. Meanwhile the Global South is making its own plans without them.
It’s incorrect to think that losing access to markets is beneficial for anyone, which is why using it as a bargaining chip to make people stop murdering each other is a good thing. Even if this imaginary Global South organization had another provider for goods, they’re at risk of being abused or manipulated by a lower number of trade partners who can increase prices at will.
I’m sorry that you disagree.
Some markets aren’t worth the trouble. It is not like Iran is losing access to China. It is losing access to a market that it had very limited access to if any.
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China is leading the world in cost effective manufacturing and infrastructure projects. I have no idea what you are huffing but it must be strong
Competition drives prices down. Bare minimum economic theory for you, you’re welcome for that.
Who is going to undercut the Chinese? This I want to see. Maybe the Europeans shouldn’t slap tariffs on Chinese products then.
Provider for goods? What are you on about? Western nations outsource all production to the global south (pretty much) and the only thing they make is overpriced software (hyperbole)
It’s incorrect to think that losing access to markets is beneficial for anyone
It almost never is, but in this case the Global North’s sanctions are forcing the Global South to build alliances amongst themselves, and this shift is likely to be quite durable.
Geopolitical Economy Hour, Apr. 2023: Russia Leaves the Neoliberal West to Join the World Majority
How long do you think before we see some G7 states break rank and join BRICS? Or do you think they will go down together?
Italy kind of tried to join One Belt One Road and pulled out when the Fash got elected. Macron made some noise about BRICS at one point but Macron makes a lot of noise about bullshit.
I think there’s also some merit behind the idea that letting G7 states into BRICS is a bad idea because there’s nothing stopping them from being obstructive.
US: Let’s send weapons to our allies that are at war! Iran: We’ll do the same! US: shocked Pikachu face
With the litte difference that russia is a brutal dictatorship who invaded a sovereign country and Iran is a brutal dictatorship too.
But I guess it’s the same anyway, right?
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So you agree that the US should not invade Afghanistan and Russia should not invade Ukraine.
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Whatever happened to that there Afghanistan? Surely the Evil US Pseudo-Democracy turned them into a territory of lower class to do hard labor for USA benefit, right? What’s that? Multiple nations across the world sent troops who destroyed the ruling Taliban authoritarian regime, created an independent republic government, and built hospitals and schools while raising the average life expectancy by ten years until the USA completely withdrew?
Oh, maybe Russia just wants to fix up Ukraine a little bit and then leave, too? Just like they are doing with Crimea. /s
The situation in Ukraine is an inevitable escalation in the war that started in 2014 with the US-backed fascist coup in Ukraine that goes against the interests and wishes of Eastern Ukrainians
and the subsequent killings of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine, like Donbas, DPR, and LPR, by the coup gov for resisting.
To be clear, I don’t support the invasion per se. In fact, its goal of suppressing fascism in western Ukraine seems to have kinda backfired from this after all, with the Ukraine gov using this as an excuse to suppress the left.
But the point is, what else could’ve they done? The US had meticulously blocked off all other options over the years. Russia had already tried to join NATO multiple times from even before the USSR’s overthrow and have been denied (since it’s an imperialist org whose entire purpose is to suppress socialism globally, and particularly supress Russia) and they already had the Minsk agreements which the US sidelined through the coup. Not doing something about it would lead to the continued killing of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine by the coup gov, and NATO getting even closer to Russia since the post-2014 US puppet gov doesn’t abide by the Minsk agreements.
Can you share sources about how the coup was US-backed, how it was fascist, and on the ethnic cleansing of eastern Ukrainians? Ideally from human rights groups or independent news outlets like The Intercept if you can. Thanks.
i asked duckduckgo
amnesty international azov battalionthis was just the first result
edit: here’s the search
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=amnesty+international+azov+battalion
Thanks, I’ll look into the Amnesty reports.
Certainly no justification for Russia enacting war and doing a multitude of war crimes. Putin’s intentions are certainly imperialist and not humanitarian.
“The failure to stop abuses and possible war crimes by volunteer battalions risks significantly aggravating tensions in the east of the country and undermining the proclaimed intentions of the new Ukrainian authorities to strengthen and uphold the rule of law more broadly.”
I absolutely agree with this. I don’t know the full context of the conflict in 2014 with the annexation of Crimea, but no human rights abuses should be ignored and the people responsible need to be held accountable.
independent news outlets like The Intercept
How is The Intercept independent? They’re bound by USA laws, they’re party to the war.
- We are based in the United States.
You are telling a bullshit.
Feel free to point out what you disagree with.
The invasion was never about suppressing fascism. Russia is as bad an actor as the United States has been generally, worse realistically. (Annexing many many countries at gunpoint post world war II. Slaughtering many in gulags for simple dissent. Invading, Afghanistan etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. ) Neither one is good. And we should not be justifying either one.
In this one situation, however. While the United States isn’t strictly the good guy. They are more in the right than Russia is.
The US and Russia aren’t equivalent at all.
The USSR directly funded and supported national liberation movements against the US all over the world. Vietnam, Cuba, Korea, Bangladesh, Palestinian resistance organizations like the PFLP, etc; even directly supplied wars against “israel” for that last one. Afganistan is about the only one where the US and USSR funding opposite sides turned it into a warzone instead.
Russia’s interests are still broadly aligned with most of the world against Imperial core countries. While they’re not socialist anymore and have thus stopped funding Vietnam, PFLP etc because it’s not profitable for the capitalists that are now in power since the USSR’s overthrow, they continue to support the sovereignty of Global South countries like Syria, Venezuela, etc, and are a core part of BRICS.
There’s a reason sentiment like this is common in third world countries.
gulags
Despite being a country relatively fleshly out of a revolution and a civil war, and bearing the brunt of the nazis and the largest war in recent history, the USSR had less prisoners by both percentage and raw numbers than capitalist countries like the US.
The socialist government met workers’ needs far better than capitalist countries, or the post-Soviet capitalist countries, and made great strides in advancing women’s rights. Cuba, which uses essentially the same political system as the USSR, currently has better LGBT rights than the neighboring USA despite the brutal sanctions and embargoes put on it, and its likely what those rights would be like in the USSR now if it wasn’t overthrown.
No wonder then that 78% of its population voted to stay in the USSR right before it was illegally dissolved. (Page 1647)
Alot of this social and economic progress has since been undone with the USSR’s overthrow, with forced privatization under capitalist rule and the unmitigated rise of the christfascist church.
Human Rights in the Soviet Union: Including Comparisons with the U.S.A. by Albert Szymanski
How Capitalism Destroyed Russia
In this one situation […] United States […] are more in the right than Russia is
In the right for backing a fascist coup, the killing of Eastern Ukrainians for resisting, and meticulously blocking off all options other than a proxy war?
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Didn’t Russia invade Afghanistan first which caused Osama to go there in the first place? Then after the Taliban beat Russia with American support, America invaded Afghanistan themselves.
Afghanistan is the pinnacle of getting screwed over by imperialism from superpowers.
That’s a long list of strawmen. Whataboutism is no defense. And that’s all you got. Whether or not the US jails more people. Doesn’t excuse the brutally and abuses of ML countries and the fascist states they evolve into more often than not. I’m sure you honestly forgot 2 weeks ago. Where the modern Russia you enable and defend. Killed a political prisoner after repeated assassination attempts. Again, this is not a defense of the US. Just pointing out your blatant hypocrisy.
It’s also quaint that you think a fascist like Putin was somehow benevolently concerned about other fascists. It was a bullshit excuse from the day he made it.
If you honestly think the USSR were liberators. I suggest you go talk to actual former Soviet block countries who lived under it. And finally got liberated from it. There’s a reason they tore down all those monuments and statues erected by the murderous autocratic politburo.
USA doesn’t give a fuck about other countries sovereignty when it goes murdering across the globe
invaded a sovereign country
Thank god my wholesome democracy would never do that over and over again for my entire life, otherwise I might have to think about who they tell me the bad guys are.
Also Ukraine is not a sovereign country. We stole their sovereignty ten years ago when we replaced their government with nazis.
Did you know that the United States Army trained midwifery to locals in Iraq?
Google “Fallujah Babies” for more details!
what a terrible day to have google goggles
BURGUERMIND
The US is constantly and historically the ones propping up dictators all over the world. AND we have done it while people of those nations have either legitimately voted for the opposite, and/or were fighting for their freedom from colonial powers/dictators. We actively fund and create false narratives inside nations that we don’t like to start color revolutions. We force other nations into backing brutal sanctions if they don’t want us to go after them and to be allowed to trade with us. Our military is literally installed all over the globe, but we claim nations like China are somehow being “aggressive” for even patrolling their own areas. We create and groom evil and gaslight the world that we are somehow just allowed to police the globe. Fuck yourself.
So genocide is okay if committed by a democracy?
Russia joined a civil war in progress on the morally correct side
which the CIA said was going to happen if NATO kept expanding, back in 2008
Between Russia, Iran, and Ukraine, only two still have elections, and yet the one without is the one that isn’t a dictatorship?
The USA is a brutal dictatorship who invaded a sovereign country. What’s the difference exactly? The USA has invaded someone more recently than Russia has, and they do it a lot more often. They’re also more dictatorial and more brutal. The fact that the USA is mad at Iran for supporting their enemy is completely understandable. They’re not being hypocrites, it’s just mafia tactics and they’re not ashamed of it. What’s not understandable is you or anyone saying USA sending weapons to Ukraine and Iran sending weapons to Russia are somehow not equivalent.
To be clear, I am not at all justifying or forgiving the use of sanctions, it’s a barbaric form of warfare that explicitly targets non-combatants, the USA should be ashamed and their leadership jailed.
All liberal “democracies” are brutal capitalist dictatorships.
At least Iran and Russia’s interests are aligned with most of the world against imperial core countries.
Wtf did I just read? Have you ever been to Russia or any of the post-soviet block republic? Or are you just fantasizing from other side of the world?
I’m at Russia right now, I’ve been to Ukraine more than dozen times including twice to Crimea (Ukrainian at time of visit) and numerous times to Donbass (as Donetsk is literally hometown of my father). What’s next? Have you ever been to one of the listed places yourself or are you just fantasizing from other side of the world?
Which part of my comment do you disagree with?
That second paragraph. It’s just so mind boggling for me.
Are their foreign interests not aligned with Global South countries against imperial core ones?
Russia has consistently supported the sovereignty of Global South countries like Syria and Venezuela against the US, host Palestinian meetings, and are a core part of BRICS. While Iran supports and funds Yemen, Palestine etc. There’s a reason sentiment like this is common in third world countries.
At least Iran and Russia’s interests are aligned with most of the world against imperial core countries.
This. I count myself like one of the most of the world part and I definitely DO NOT aligh with any interests Russia had in past 100 years.
Israel
What else can they sanction Iran feom anyway?
Ha, yes. I’m sure that will work out this time.
All bark, no bite.
Lol they still haven’t learned that sanctioning these massive countries just backfires
It doesn’t though. Raising costs by forcing a country to dodge sanctions is very effective. A supply will never entirely dry up, but it will shrink and become more expensive, and that’s enough.
So far sanctioning Russia and China has mainly just sped up the Global South’s economic integration and China’s becoming self-sufficient. I can see this happening with Iran too since its economy is already somewhat Global South-oriented.
Though of course, sanctioning less developed countries like Cuba, Venezuela, DPRK, and Afganistan does successfully greatly harm their working-class population, and it has.
Sanctions on Russia have crippled their ability to get modern chips for their war machine, so they have to rely on Soviet tech. They hurt Putin personally so much that he went and bought an entire Presidential campaign.
so they have to rely on Soviet tech
Well that part is true enough at least. Capitalist Russia naturally can’t innovate as much as Socialist/Soviet Russia could. Even its highly sophisticated public transport like in Moscow are stuff that the USSR built; they’d probably be filled with high-speed rail by now, like China is, if it wasn’t overthrown.
Jesus the copium. What’s actually happening is that Russia is able to rely on decades old technology because it was built to work and built to last, so 40 years later they can use it in modern warfare and it’s still effective. This also means Russia can allocate its resources to outproducing the entirety of the West when it comes to artillery shells, which is actually what’s winning this war.
The idea that sanctions hurt Putin personally so he had to buy an election is also ridiculous. He’s now a wartime president, just like GWBush was, so getting reelected is even easier now than it was when he was merely the president who reversed the 8 years of declining life expectancy after neoliberal economic reforms destroyed Russia.
Your brain must be a never ending Disney movie.
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The western liberal is an ongoing study on what no materialist analysis does to the Homo Sapian brain.
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Yeah that’s a temp ban for holocaust trivialization if I ever saw one (the person you’re replying to)
Russia’s economic integration has undoubtedly been with the Global South in recent years. What, exactly, are you disputing from OP’s comment?
historically
Lmfao the USSR directly funded and supported emancipatory movements all over the world, like Vietnam, Cuba, Korea, Bangladesh, Palestinian resistance organizations like the PFLP, etc; even directly supplied wars against “israel” for that last one. Afganistan is about the only one where the US and USSR funding opposite sides turned it into a warzone instead.
Russia’s interests are still broadly aligned with most of the world against Imperial core countries. While they’re not socialist anymore and have thus stopped funding Vietnam, PFLP etc because it’s not profitable for the capitalists that are now in power since the USSR’s overthrow, they continue to support the sovereignty of Global South countries like Syria, Venezuela, etc, and are a core part of BRICS. There’s a reason sentiment like this is common in third world countries.
And if “Global South” sounds too academic for you… I’m not sure what to say.
It’s just speeding up dedollarisation at this point. Trade is increasingly done in other currencies because the US dollar is just a minefield of sanctions and regulations. The US had this power back when they produced everything people needed, but nowadays everything’s coming from China, so why involve a third party in your trade that can freeze your accounts for no reason?
I think it’s a sanction on Iran, which… how much trade is really going between Europe and Iran
Man, there is a lot of crazy and/or bots/trolls here.
Care to elaborate?
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“The peoples who disagree with me aren’t real akshually sweaty, it’s all a conspiracy from [insert whatever person/country lib decided to hate this week].”
Isn’t you radlib’s whole shtick that you’re supposedly better than the MAGA Qanon crowd in every ways? If so you should at least try to pretend to have better arguments than them lol. This is legitimately pathetic.
The fact that you dogged the question with a thought terminating cliché instead of elaborating as was asked of you is a perfect illustration of the fact that the only troll here is you, and that you are nothing but a sad clown with no actual arguments 🤡
This is your brain detoxing from echo chamber induced copium. Welcome to not being on reddit.
Reddit wasn’t my first or last news forum platform. (Newsgroups were my first)
Unfortunately this bit of Lemmy reminds me of gote/goat (whatever it was called), that turned into pit of Nazis kicked out of Reddit. Or Twitter as rules are removed.
Seams to be, were there is no decent code of conduct, you get Nazis. Be interesting to see how it plays out on a federated platform.
Most of lemmy (lemmygrad, hexbear, lemmy, feddit, etc) has pretty decent Codes of Conduct, though? Take a look at the modlog, plenty of bans for trolling, transphobia, spam, unreliable sources, and more.
pit of nazis
An excellent choice of words
Go to Dessalines and Nutomic and complain to him, man…
Like you people say… if you don’t like it, complain to the manager
Seams to be, were there is no decent code of conduct, you get Nazis.
That’s absolutely true. Feel free to peruse the lemmy.ml modlog for aggressive fascist removals and bans.
Lemmy instances have better moderation than reddit all things considered. There’s not nearly as many zionazis here as reddit for example, and the ones that exist are only on .world
There was that one nazi instance exploding-heads, but we chased them off lol
Neoliberals yet again refusing to consider someone could disagree with them and still be sane, instead resorting to calling all opposition crazy or paid actors.
So are you saying you think western sanctions have been working as intended, then? You haven’t actually stated anything that refutes what others in this thread have said. I only ask because Russia seems to be doing fine economically, all things considered. Germany and the rest of Europe that were/are dependent on Russian exports, though, not so much…
You must be new here lol. Lots of tankies on this instance.
Oh, right hadn’t paid attention. That explains it.
You might not even see the comments they’re referring to as your instance has their instances blocked.
Can we just try to get peace and stop with the escalation? I am not going to send any of my children to these wars.
Appeasing people like Putin doesn’t lead to peace.
Thousand of men women and children are dying, what is your practical solution to stop the death?
How about Putin retreats and stops killing them?
Giving up liberty doesn’t buy you security. You just end up with neither. Putin won’t stop with Ukraine.
Halting the Russian war machine before it increases to millions.
Ah, love seeing liberals always scapegoating one guy at the top instead of the capitalist system that brought them to power in the first place.
If Pootin died right now, he’d just be replaced by someone similar. Or worse, since most his real opposition currently are even more right wing than him. Unless the material reasons for this war happening in the first place aren’t dealt with (ie the 2014 anti-Russia US-backed fascist coup and the subsequent killing of ethnic Russians and Eastern Ukrainians and Crimeans for resisting), nothing will change.
From a comment below
The situation in Ukraine is an inevitable escalation in the war that started in 2014 with the US-backed fascist coup in Ukraine that goes against the interests and wishes of Eastern Ukrainians
and the subsequent killings of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine, like Donbas, DPR, and LPR, by the coup gov for resisting.
To be clear, I don’t support the invasion per se. In fact, its goal of suppressing fascism in western Ukraine seems to have kinda backfired from this after all, with the Ukraine gov using this as an excuse to suppress the left.
But the point is, what else could’ve they done? The US had meticulously blocked off all other options over the years. Russia had already tried to join NATO multiple times from even before the USSR’s overthrow and have been denied (since it’s an imperialist org whose entire purpose is to suppress socialism globally, and particularly supress Russia) and they already had the Minsk agreements which the US sidelined through the coup. Not doing something about it would lead to the continued killing of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine by the coup gov, and NATO getting even closer to Russia since the post-2014 US puppet gov doesn’t abide by the Minsk agreements.
Putin is too paranoid to ensure succession is in place. If he goes, and it will be bloody infighting until a new strong man arises.
But just insisting nations bend over when he decides he wants them is no mechanism for peace.
In case you’re wondering what the fuss is about, historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory.
Balkan Odyssey: Everything you know about history is (probably) wrong
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until a new strong man arises.
Lmfao I can’t with you liberals’ fantasies
Marvel-brain and its consequences have been devastating for humanity
Just curious. Which action here are you criticising? The “giving Russia ballistic missiles”-part, right?
Ah, why didn’t the world leaders think of that? Just press the “peace” button! That will stop the baddies from being bad! Just say “chill out man, we tryna get peace”.
They could have had peace almost two years ago, but the western power pushed for continued war. They dont want peace, they want global politics agendas.
Oh, yes, the western powers could’ve just not helped Ukraine, so Russia just kills them. No Ukrainians, no war. Finally! Peace!
