Ah, lemmygrad. Hello from Hexbear. I used to lurk lemmygrad but didn’t have an account. Now I can interact with you people, who I fucking love.
We love you too comrade.
My god, those are HUGE here.
ADORABLE!!!
Everything is bigger in Lemmygrad 😏
“Ooops we dun did another proxy war, sowwy!”Pwoxy waw
I’d like a proxy war in my ass please 🥺
Go ahead! Put me in horny jail! You’ll only give me what I want!
And watch as the libs over on .world all act like they never supported that “shady asiatic” Zelenskyy and were against the war from the start.
I’m guessing we’ll start seeing this narrative go mainstream when it becomes impossible to hide the fact that Ukraine lost. Recriminations are starting already, and at some point I expect that western media will miraculously remember about all the nazis and start talking about how they were cleverly misleading the noble west all along. That’s gonna be the only politically acceptable way to turn off the tap.
The trouble is, when will it ever make economic sense from the perspective of the military industrial complex to turn off the tap? Even if Ukraine offers nothing in payment the European countries sending all their F16s about to become new customers for F35s…
Indeed, now that there’s a credible enemy and NATO was forced to dump a whole bunch of its existing stock, there’s going to be an unlimited tap to produce and sell new weapons. Micheal Hudson loves to talk about the protection racket US managed to setup in Europe.
Yeah to me this is why I think people saying the collective west (chimerical) is getting “owned” because tens of thousands of Ukrainians (also Russians) are getting thrown into a meat grinder are wrong. Unless you mean countries like Germany are getting ripped off by the Failed States of America for monopoly priced energy and new weapons. The current state of the board is exactly what the Failed States and its military and energy concerns want. They’ve planned this shit for a long time.
My impression is that US basically had two objectives. The primary one was to try and collapse Russia. That would’ve been the big prize because then they were hoping to Balkanize it, and put in puppet regimes that would let US companies exploit them while allowing US to surround China from the west. That goal failed miserably as we’re now seeing.
However, the secondary concern was that Europe was increasingly becoming integrated with Russia and China economically and in the long run that would mean that it would shift away from US politically. The war put a stop to all that and forced Europe firmly back into US camp for the time being. Military spending US is going to force on Europe is going to help bolster US economy at the expense of mass austerity in Europe. On top of that, US will get to poach a bunch of European companies which was the purpose of the inflation reduction act.
Finally, US is trying to force Europe to decouple from China which is very important for US as it would mean that Europe would be stuck purchasing goods from US at monopoly prices. It looks like Europe is reluctant to do that at the moment, but the pressure from US is immense.
My view is that this plan is not sustainable long term. Europeans are already starting to realize they got played and we’re seeing anti war parties polling increasingly high across all the major European countries. I expect there’s going to be a huge backlash against the US as the economic situation continues to unravel in Europe. At that point, it’s quite likely that European countries will start patching things up with Russia. Unfortunately, the right were the only ones to take a stance against the war while the left sided with the liberal war mongers. So, now we’re seeing a huge political surge of the right in Europe.
I also expect that both EU is going to collapse going forward. EU only makes sense when there’s economic prosperity, but once the pie shrinks everybody will want to keep their piece of it. I think it’s very likely that Hungary will be the first country to exit the EU within the next couple of years.
It’s also a question how long NATO can be sustained given that US is the only country in the alliance with any significant military strength or industrial capacity. After the war ends, I expect that US will be increasingly losing interest in Europe and will refocus on China.
I expect there’s going to be a huge backlash against the US as the economic situation continues to unravel in Europe.
Yes, though nearly all this backlash seems to becoming from the far right as the “left” in Europe is 110% on board with supporting Ukraine. So we could see anti-US sentiment take off (good) but from the right (bad).
Witch mean that the liberal “left” will have to make a choice: either changing their stance away from pro-US or doubling down, but if the anti-US sentiment start growing from the right, the liberal “left”, by contrarian bias, might coose to double down, witch would be it’s undoing.
While the fall of the liberal “left” in europe might be an opportunity as desilusioned liberals are typically a fertile ground for the communist ideology, it will be a short lived and risky one, as from there, the only thing that might stop the rise of the far right would be the apperance of a widespread true leftist movement soon enought that the right doesn’t completely take over the political landscape among common folks.
If we fail to create such an able leftist movement, europe might see a secound taking over by fascists.
Yeah as someone who migrated from the Failed States to Europe I’m really concerned for the future here. You are correct opposing the war has been perversely painted as a right-wing issue and I have no idea what it’s going to take to undo the damage of Failed States propaganda. Germans in particular for understandable historical reasons seem to have an allergy to asserting themselves and fighting for their own national interests, preferring in a way to be suborned to the Failed States. It’s possible as a result the AfD will get very dangerous very quickly if the left here remains divided and politically impotent, unable to offer its own clear anti war message.
That’s my biggest worry with Europe as well. The left needs to find a consistent position that actually resonates with the broad public, and there isn’t much time left to do that. As the economic conditions continue to decline, people are going to be shifting away from the mainstream liberal position, and if the left can’t provide a credible platform then they’re necessarily going to go to the right.
Wait until right sector start talking about how they were stabbed in the back by western liberals
Indeed, and then consider that in the context of a CBS report that found only 30% of the weapons the west sends made it to the frontline. A whole bunch of the weapons that Ukraine was flooded with ended up on the black market and made their way into Europe. It’s almost certain that Ukrainian nazis have established networks with the dpmestic ones in a whole bunch of countries at this point. It’s not hard to imagine what sort of things they might be planning once the war is over.
“The US trusted Zelensky on bad intel, so it’s all no one’s fault really”
Yeah, that’s basically what they’re going with. Crafty Zelensky hoodwinked the noble and trusting west.
Anything that gets people out of that meatgrinder. idk what the theory is maybe the Zelensky government thinks they can get a bigger cut when they sell off Ukraine’s farmland if it comes pre-fertilized.
all regional officials in charge of military conscription removed.
Lol. Was Ukraine one of the most corrupt countries in Europe or one of the most corrupt countries in the world when all this shit lit off back in '14?
Officials taking cash and cryptocurrency bribes or helping people eligible to be called up to fight to leave Ukraine are among the charges, said Mr Zelensky, in a video posted on social media.
wtf I support military corruption now. These are probably the Ukrainian officials who have saved the most Ukrainian lives, and they’re getting the treatment of Germans who helped Nazi targets flee from Germany. What an odd coincidence.
Man I posted the Tiananmen square video in a desperate attempt to stir up as much shit as you and I just can’t manage it. It’s like you actually are a communist robot designed to piss off libs all the time. Yet there is a part of me that’s like “what if they are like, some insane CIA psyop that’s just that fucking good?” And my Friday night drunk brain can’t handle it.
It’s like you actually are a communist robot
I’m the communist robot. Yogthos is much worse for the libs… it turns out Yogthos is the 4th Chairman of the Communist Party of China and the 5th Chairman of the Council of People’s Commissars of the Soviet Union. As we know, 4 is unlucky in China, but somehow Yogthos is redirecting this to the libs instead.
He posts so much truth that he have a personal fanclub of avid haters stalking and brigading him personally.
I don’t know about the bribes, but draft dodging the war in Ukraine is based.
How does the post’s headline relate to the article?
I think it’s pretty obvious? Article is an example (not the first and certainly not the last) of western media making a cracks in their narrative - it is illustration of the the headline.
So you think until this point the western media narrative has been: “Ukraine is the only former USSR member that has no corruption.”? Seems pretty wild to me I don’t know
Yes actually, since the beginning of the war up till very recently they could fart and western media smell roses, and anyone who expressed some doubts or remind them of the previous narration (before 2022 western media were correctly calling Ukraine the most corrupted country in Europe which furthermore have huge nazi problem) were called “shills, propagandists, and putinbots”. And when UA ultimately lose the war, western media will start to bash them again, most likely even harsher than before.
Hell if you go and see comments to this and few similar articles in let’s say reddit worldnews sub, you will still find tons of people calling even the very same journos putin shills for publishing this.
So the argument is that Ukraine never stood a chance in this war and the politicians in the west always knew this but they’ve been pushing the narrative that “Ukraine can still win” because it serves their purposes to send Ukrainians to die in the theory that this will weaken Russia.
The concept is known as a “bleeding sore”, going back to the Napoleonic wars when Britain used the same strategy in Spain against Napoleon. It doesn’t matter that Ukraine can’t win because the wests purpose is served by the conflict itself more than the resolution.
Note how the mask often slips and pro-war advocates talk about how “cost effective” this war is for the west because it’s Ukrainians dying and not Americans. The Polish President said this just yesterday. Ghoulish.
The west only drips in weapons, enough to keep Ukraine in the fight but laughably inadequate to win, or even reach the “first line” of Russian defensive works. The purpose of the west is served by keeping the conflict open because it’s Ukrainians and Russians dying.
I can give you a list of (deservedly or not) respected western geopolitical thinkers who were pointing out the only outcome of this war is a lot of dead Ukrainians going back to 2014. The western leaders knew this all along and they cynically decided to push for conflict and the abandonment of the Minsk II peace protocols because they saw an opportunity to get Russia bogged down in an Afghanistan-style strength-sapping conflict.
The shift in the narrative is that instead of simply beating their chests with slava Ukraine war chants, the absolute failure of the counteroffensive makes it obvious that Ukraine can’t win, and once that is acknowledged then it becomes morally untenable to argue Ukrainians should continue dying to try to force the culturally Russian regions to remain part of Ukraine.
The Polish President said this just yesterday.
Can i please have the link? I would rather not seek it myself since polish media are worst cesspit when the words “Ukraine” or “Russia” are in search bar.
https://www.aei.org/op-eds/polands-president-says-america-and-poland-must-stop-russian-imperialism/
I can’t find the link I originally read but I found the quote here
”It is very simple,” Polish President Andrzej Duda told me last week. “Right now, Russian imperialism can be stopped cheaply, because American soldiers are not dying.” But if we don’t put a halt to Russian aggression now, “there will be a very high price to be paid.”
Here’s RT reporting on it: https://www.rt.com/russia/581155-duda-ukraine-lives-cheap/
Here’s The Washington Post “reporting”: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/08/10/poland-president-duda-ukraine-interview/
It’s worth noting the US is promoting this narrative too: https://cepa.org/article/its-costing-peanuts-for-the-us-to-defeat-russia/
Że kurwa co 💀
Thanks. Holy fucking shit he really said it, it’s even on the official site of president:
Fuck off with your pro Russian headline which doesn’t match the article.
Ukraine has a responsibility to make sure US and foreign support isn’t wasted and they’re doing just that.
Ukraine has a responsibility to make sure US and foreign support isn’t wasted and they’re doing just that.
idk dude, maybe you should stop sending wave after wave after wave of leopards and bradleys into minefields if you want to not waste Western resources
I hope Ukraine kill all these invading Russian motherfuckers and that Putin dies too.
the saddest thing is that at the end of this war, there will be hundreds of thousands if not millions of dead Ukrainians, all who died because of Western hatred. but you won’t actually care, will you? the lives of the average Ukrainian mean nothing to you. you could send a hundred Ukrainians to die horrifically in the no man’s land and if a Russian stubs his toe because of it, you would call it a worthy sacrifice, because causing the Russians inconvenience and suffering is worth much more than saving the lives of innocent people who have been conscripted at gunpoint.
if it wasn’t a worthy sacrifice, and you thought this wholesale slaughter should stop, you would support ending the war, like the left does.
Yes, all because of western hatred, fuck all to do with the people who invaded in the first place. They’re all imperalist fucks but takes like this on the situation are just completely braindead.
the people who invaded in the first place
Where have you been for 8 years? 2014-2022
What do you know of the modern “civil conflict” in Ukraine? Do you know what happened in 2014? Are you aware of who began massacring who that year?
Holy shit, NATOpedia made an article saying “Hey, there might be actual historical context to this situation and Putin didn’t wake up on February 24th and decide to murder a bunch of people because he’s a very evil bad bad man and King Zelensky shall slay the dragon and then we all live happily ever after.” is actually Russian disinformation? Oh my fucking god. These people are unbearable.
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That’s hilarious. What should happen after signing an agreement is that the violence should stop! Gtfo with this things were getting better but we won’t provide any evidence to back this claim up bullshit.
Reminds me of how ingrained the presupposed eternal nature of this imperialist hell is into things like statistical analyses of police violence.
For instance, I once had a guy in college (who is now a professional Republican lobbyist) tell me that there was indeed a racial problem behind police violence in the U.S.! The racial disparity between how many white folk and how many black folk were getting killed, he agreed, was appalling. He said, however, that over time that disparity was shrinking, and officer-involved fatalities were reaching “equitable levels between whites and blacks!”, so we’re actually on the fast track to progress, not regress.
The disparity was shrinking. Not the actual amount of murders.
The wanton and brutal murders committed by police are not the primary issue, they say, the opaquely racial disparity between who is being murdered is.
A game of images. A perfectly logical conclusion to this train of thought is that police should simply murder more white people to prove that racism is over, to make state-sanctioned violence more equitable. Murder, but be inclusive about it!
This is the presentation of the issue by those who acknowledge that there even exists a racial problem. There are plenty who outright deny its existence and still more who celebrate it. Politicians who claim to oppose police violence (especially the phenotypically-motivated kind) will nevertheless be found supporting legislation that further militarizes the police. This is how Amerika does politics… never harm reduction, only harm redistribution - at best.
It’s so fucking funny. I shared it semi-ironically (the Russian bots are inside your walls) but I also want it to serve as an example of liberal anti-communist biases that permeate Wikifedia and hopefully an exercise for our more liberal acquaintances to practice their critical reading skills.
Hey, that time the Ukrainian state killed people? It wasn’t TECHNICALLY an attempted genocide, according to our sixth-time revised definition of the term (rev. 2022). We know they TECHNICALLY outlawed the spoken and written language of a major plurality of their people and TECHNICALLY killed 14,000+ of them, but like, it wasn’t a genocide. Russia is doing the genocide. Because Putler is ebil.
It’s amazing how thin the veneer of understanding is on empire defenders. They cannot even keep their criticisms of international and national policy differentiated, when it comes to attacking anti-imperialists it’s always both. No examination of political economy or national histories, just democratic good guys and auforitarian bad guys.
Wow. I’ve been asking people that question since February 2022 and I have yet to receive a single Ruble from Mr. Putin.
I recall talking with my friends about Ukraine being a Nazi state in 2020. It was just a fucked up thing all of us knew. I suppose I ought to wash my brain of that vivid memory, lest I become a kremlin apologist ex post facto.
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Imagine thinking they’d stop at 100 sq km lol
What a shock: you aren’t willing to answer that question. I wonder why
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Ukraine shoulda kept those nukes, those are much better at protecting neutrality when you share a border with Russia. Educate yourself about the Budapest memorandum and maybe you’ll realize your hypocrisy. Why the sam hell do you think would Russia care about breaking internal law?
RuLeS baSEd oRDeR!
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Of course not! It’s not Ukraine’s fault that the Russian Federation invaded and demanded they give up land.
That question was a test of your basic empathy and humanity
Let's see those results
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Meanwhile “tankies”:
Keep men, lose land; land can be taken again. Keep land, lose men; land and men are both lost
(Mao)
The imperialism of marching your border closer and closer to NATO’s troops from 1990 to 2022 is truly the worst kind. Russia must be punished for putting Moscow that close to Ukraine.
couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the pro-Russian separatists in the Donbass who were getting slaughtered for years before 2022. those people don’t matter, only pro-Ukraine people matter. couldn’t possibly have anything to do with security interests. only NATO’s security interests matter, not Russia (or China’s). couldn’t possibly have anything to do with having armed NATO-trained troops in a country that recently experienced a US-backed coup. of course, if Russia puts Wagner forces in African countries (so not even inside NATO’s “sphere of influence”) that recently experienced a coup, that’s an entirely different thing because uhh Russia is bad and NATO is good. that’s Russian imperialism. us putting our troops in coup’d countries is freedom and bringing democracy. and also that wasn’t a coup, it was actually the citizens doing it all by themselves.
That has to be one of the dumbest takes I’ve ever read on the internet.
If the West wouldn’t support Ukraine then the Russians would kill them without resistance, that’s about it.
If the West didn’t organize a coup in Ukraine, put Nazis into power, then prod them into slaughtering their countrymen, then the Russians wouldn’t have invaded. The Russians didn’t just wake up one day and decide to invade Ukraine.
I’d love to see how you people will react when Mexico joins BRICS and the US invades it.
Mexico aint joining brics unfortunely. Tho it doesnt stop the US from manufacturing consent to invade on a daily basis with their fentanyl+cartel talking points.
I’d love to see how you people will react when Mexico joins BRICS and the US invades it.
I cannot fucking wait for China and Russia to do freedom of navigation exercises between Cuba and Florida like how the US does with Taiwan and China and for Americans to just fucking LOSE it. Holy shit, it’ll be so funny. “No, this isn’t the same because China is evil and we’re the good guys!”
They did it near Alaska and Yankees lost it
If the West wouldn’t support Ukraine then the Russians would kill them without resistance, that’s about it.
Kill who? Without the west supplying and supporting Ukraine wouldn’t even have a functioning military to kill.
Did all the Japanese get killed after they surrendered? Did all Germans? If they had surrendered earlier less of them would have died. The same goes for Nazi Ukraine. Their defeat is inevitable, and prolonging the inevitable only adds to the suffering…and to the list of war crimes that they will be charged with by Russia’s tribunals afterwards. The West’s “support” is literally destroying Ukraine and they have all admitted that they have no problem with this, in fact they profit from it.
The West is happy to “fight to the last Ukrainian” to hurt Russia, the Banderite Nazis are happy to die (and force their less fanatical compatriots to do so as well) for the West so long as it enables their genocidal urges, meanwhile the only ones who actually care about the Ukrainian people and have gone out of their way to try and save them from the Western imperialists and from themselves are the Russians.
It’s actually really sad that there isn’t a single country on the planet that cares about Ukraine except Russia (and maybe Belarus). To the West they’re just a tool, useful idiot cannon fodder, to the rest of the world they’re a tragic cautionary tale about what happens when you let the lunatics take over the asylum, which is what happened on the Maidan in 2014. If you really cared about Ukraine you too would want the flow of weapons and money to them to stop, because the longer this goes on the worse it will be for them.
Not to mention the arming of a now destabilize country in Europe, could have totally unforeseeable consequences. But that’s not Americans problem.
If the west wouldn’t ‘support’ Ukraine then they’d still have their democratically elected government and wouldn’t be in conflict with Russia in the first place
Obviously not as they’d be under Putin’s control.
If nearly a decade ago Ukraine were allowed to keep it’s democratically elected government, they would be under Putin’s control?
Why do you feel comfortable jumping in to argue when you don’t seem to know what’s being talked about in the first place?
The leader that Ukraine rejected because he was under Moscow’s control? Funny that you don’t mention the constant meddling that Moscow has been doing in Ukrainian politics to bring it under their control. Ukraine elects a leader that wants to align with Europe and not Russia and suddenly Russia engages in a 3 day war to get rid of Zelensky. Funny that.
Holy shit what a nauseating
from how you assign the will of “Ukraine” to the fascist militias that carried out the coup. Not the actual voting population of the country. Those people aren’t “Ukraine”. Because “Ukraine” rejected what Ukraine voted for. FuNnY thAt.
Human garbage such as yourself is precisely the reason this war is still ongoing and hundreds of thousands of people are dead. If you want Russians to die so bad then go sign up for the foreign legion and fight yourself instead of shitposting here you deplorable piece shit.
I don’t think the person you’re replying to is responsible for hundreds of thousands of people dying my man. Calm down. If you’re angry at all the unnecessary deaths, point your energy at Putin.
Every single person who supports continuation of this war is responsible for the people dying in this war. Meanwhile, pointing your energy at Putin while living in the west is idiotic because you have zero influence on Putin. What you have influence on is your own deplorable regime that’s fueling the continuation of this war.
The war continues because Russia remains in Ukraine. All Russia has to do is withdraw from Ukraine and needless death of both sides ends.
My “deplorable regime” is helping Ukraine from defending itself from aggressors that’s trying to take control of the country, that the Ukrainian people clearly don’t want. The Ukrainians don’t want to continue this war. They’d love it to stop right now. But they can’t because Russia remains in their country. And don’t forget which country constantly launches rocket attacks against civilians since day 1 of this war. Literally the first day, Russian troops have opened fire on civilians, with orders to kill everyone.
If you think Ukraine should give up fighting to stop any deaths is insane as all Russia has to do is then continue its march into Ukraine. Why would Russia stop if Ukraine doesn’t resist? The entire world would be chaos if nobody defended their homeland, all it would take is a single aggressor to start a war and nobody would stop them.
Imagine if Britain, Russia and the US had surrendered to nazi Germany and Japan to prevent deaths in their respective cities. That’s basically your argument.
I wonder what your motivation for supporting Russia is in this. Are you a paid Russian troll? Or just attention starved in the real world so you need to have a contrary opinion to get any kind of attention?
Edit: it’s also kind of suspicious that any time a user from two specific instances they get upvoted multiple times almost instantly.
The war continues because Russia remains in Ukraine. All Russia has to do is withdraw from Ukraine and needless death of both sides ends.
Russia isn’t going to leave, and nothing the west has done got Ukraine closer to winning the war. What the west has achieved was to drag this war out and ensure that countless people died in the process. If anything, the west ensured that Ukraine is in a far worse position now than it was in March last year when US and UK sabotaged negotiations.
If still you think that Ukraine can win this war then you need to start engaging with reality. Your whole rant is premised on a nonsensical assumption that Ukraine can win. Meanwhile, comparing this to WW2 shows stunning amounts of historical illiteracy and utter lack of understanding in regards to causes of this war.
Finally, nowhere have I supported Russia in anything here. What I’ve explained to you is the objective reality of the situation. The fact that you see this in black and white terms of either supporting the west using Ukraine as a proxy in a war with Russia or supporting Russian invasion shows that you have infantile understanding of the world. Your childish insults are a further indication of your stunted mental development.
Finally, nowhere have I supported Russia in anything here
Your reactions to other people and your blaming of western nations very clearly puts you in the position of supporting Russia. You’ve not once admitted that Russia is to blame for the countless deaths. that it has caused in its aggression. Instead you keep trying to twist it on everyone else for having the absolute-fucking-audacity of defending themselves. I mean, how dare they fight for their nations survival and independence!
The fact that you see this in black and white terms of either supporting the west using Ukraine as a proxy in a war with Russia or supporting Russian invasion shows that you have infantile understanding of the world.
This is probably one of the very few conflicts in recent times where this war is black and white. There’s a very clear aggressor. This entire war is utterly pointless. It’s not difficult to see how Russia is the aggressor here.
If still you think that Ukraine can win this war then you need to start engaging with reality. Your whole rant is premised on a nonsensical assumption that Ukraine can win. Why are you so confident that Russia can win? They should have won this war within 24 hours of the invasion. Instead the 3 day operation has been going on a little while longer. The only reason why they’re still in this fight is because of the huge stockpiles they amassed over the past 70 years.
Russia isn’t going to leave, and nothing the west has done got Ukraine closer to winning the war. What the west has achieved was to drag this war out and ensure that countless people died in the process. They will, eventually. Maybe it’ll take a year, maybe it’ll take 10. I’ll iterate the point I made in my previous reply: should Russia have rolled over and immediately surrendered to Nazi Germany to prevent deaths? Should North Vietnam have conceded to the US because the US wasn’t going to leave? Look how long that war lasted. Ukraine has an absolute right to fight to push out the Russian aggressors and not concede any land.
supporting the west using Ukraine as a proxy in a war with Russia All of Russia’s doing. All the west is doing is giving Ukraine the tools and info to defend itself.
Your reactions to other people and your blaming of western nations very clearly puts you in the position of supporting Russia.
No, that puts me in a position of having actual understanding of the situation and reality of the war instead of regurgitating western propaganda the way you’re doing.
Instead you keep trying to twist it on everyone else for having the absolute-fucking-audacity of defending themselves. I mean, how dare they fight for their nations survival and independence!
Where were you when these people were trying to defend themselves as reported by CNN, and where were you when this was happening?
This is probably one of the very few conflicts in recent times where this war is black and white. There’s a very clear aggressor. This entire war is utterly pointless. It’s not difficult to see how Russia is the aggressor here.
It’s not, and only an ignoramus or a propagandist would claim that. Your whole narrative based on the fallacy of homogenizing Ukraine. Let’s take a look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
here’s how the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
Ukraine is clearly not some homogeneous blob, but a large country with complex cultural and ethnic situations.
Furthermore, the idea that NATO threatens Russia doesn’t come from Russia. Plenty of western experts have been saying this for many decades. This only became controversial to mention after the war started. Here’s what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:
50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:
George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.
Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"
Even Gorbachev warned about this. All these experts were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.
And of course, RAND published a whole study titled extending Russia where it proposes to use Ukraine as a western proxy the way is being done now. You’re either a shill or a useful idiot for the empire, either way not a good look.
All Russia has to do is withdraw from Ukraine and needless death of both sides ends.
People in Donbas will certainly keep being killed if Russia withdraws
Edit: it’s also kind of suspicious that any time a user from two specific instances they get upvoted multiple times almost instantly.
Being popular and having friends is only suspicious to friendless losers
I see your brigading chums have arrived 😂
You’re the one who’s brigading, I don’t remember inviting you on our instance. Banned for brigading and possibly being a funded shill.
Who provided Ukraine with cluster ammo and depleted uranium ammo that will infect their own soil and people for decades to come
Ukraine has a responsibility to make sure US and foreign support isn’t wasted and they’re doing just that.
Correct, they are doing just that: wasting the support they’ve been given.
You lost, get over it
I hope Ukraine kill all these invading Russian motherfuckers and that Putin dies too.
Yes, we know you libs dream of Russian genocide, but you can keep dreaming.
Why do you think Russia deserves the land it invaded?
There was a referendum in the Donbass and people voted to join Russia. Much like happened with Alsace and Lorraine. I’m sorry but we salute the red 🇰🇵 white 🇨🇺 and blue 🇱🇦 here if you don’t like democracy you can fuck off back to lemmy.
Anything is better than to live under nazi rule.
They probably don’t, but unlike the bourgeois government of Ukraine, the bourgeois government of Russia wasn’t waging a several years long campaign of ethnic violence to redirect working class anger. If Russia is going to prevent a genocide, that’s obviously better.
I have a question for you. Why are liberals so much more interested in protecting the rich than the ethnic minorities they use as scapegoats? You guys do the same thing when you whine about communists in Ukraine fighting antisemitic Ukrainian landlords. How much were my ancestors supposed to endure in order to protect the privilege of the parasites?
The key issue for me is the right of a people to self determination.
The people who live in the eastern parts of Ukraine are overwhelming Russian speaking and identify as ethnically Russian. They voted three times in various ways for some form of preserving their cultural rights, only to have their expression of Democratic will met with violent militias, shelling, and other violence, and then finally voted once again to secede from Ukraine, largely motivated by the extreme hostility from right wing Ukrainian nationalists who were banning the use of Russian, imposing assimilationist education policies, banning political parties that represented the people there, and even banning the free exercise of religion if that religious practice looked to the Russian Orthodox Church for leadership.
The principle of the self determination of a people to choose their own government demands respect and Ukraine has no right to impose their will on a population that doesn’t want it.
You should look at what the people who actually live there, in the east not just those in Kyiv, have been saying for a decade. They don’t want to be part of Ukraine anymore and it’s because of the extreme violence Ukraine has inflicted upon them since 2014.
Which referendums are you referring to and does any country besides Russia or North Korea accept the results? Just an FYI elections in Russia itself are not free from corruption in any sense of the word. But I’m sure you take putin’s word when he says their fair Lol 2014 is when Russian backed separatists began working in Ukraine, Russia has always been the aggressor and could’ve stopped the violence whenever they choose.
“That referendum and those elections don’t count because the USA said no” truly the voice of democracy and freedom.
I guess it was Putin that forced Zelenskyy to ban the political opposition? Because the damn Putin bots kept voting wrong.
Better than murdering them with polonium or putting them away in prison??? What a case of whatttaboutism. Did I ever make the claim that Ukraine was a bastion of democracy? No! your fevered brain is just rattling off talking points that you heard parroted in other threads. All you talking heads do is deflect. I say that Cuz I noticed you never made any attempt to claim that the referendums were legit. Which they weren’t.
What is your proof the referenda were not legit? You’re the one who’s going against the grain here, it’s you who needs to prove your stance. I won’t accept it without evidence.
Why does “they voted for it repeatedly for a decade” not compute for you?
Are you of the opinion that the people in the east want to be part of Ukraine? Because they don’t, not after a decade of being brutalized by far right militias and seeing their cities shelled by the Ukrainian military and being denied the right to speak their language or practice their religion.
When you talk about “Russian backed separatists” you realize those separatists live there don’t you? You know what the word separatist means right?
Ukraine is using military force to deny them their right to self determination and the only reason you want to call the referendum illegitimate is because the people who live there chose the wrong answer.
You don’t value their views at all. They don’t matter to you. Which makes your position immoral and bloodthirsty.
No! your fevered brain is just rattling off talking points that you heard parroted in other threads.
LMAO you have zero self awareness and its kind of adorable. You aren’t in your liberal echo chamber here and no amount of tantrum throwing is going to make anyone take you seriously.
Which referendums are you referring to and does any country besides Russia or North Korea accept the results?
literally the consent “isn’t there somebody you forgot to ask?” meme but with America
but this is also a very funny way of imagining how self-determination and independence movements work a lot of the time. Imagine a world where a newfound country breaks free from an existing one and then that newfound country sees that 90% of the UN, including the country they just broke free from, doesn’t recognize them for doing that and they’re just like “Well, shucks. I guess we’re going back and re-joining the country again, because these people aren’t ready to accept us yet!”
That’s all on you for misunderstanding how being a country works. It doesn’t matter that you hold elections but that you hold the monopoly of violence over the population. That’s what gets you recognition. Color me shocked that you don’t even know how the most rudimentary geopolitics works …
What are you saying? The Ukrainian state held a monopoly of violence over the people of the Donbass and used it regularly since the coup in 2014. These people in turn declared independence in order to free themselves from this violence, but the Ukrainian state wouldn’t have it. The only way to counter violent suppression is with violence. These people know this and it’s why they invited Russian military intervention to their cause.
Who has the monopoly of violence in Luhansk and Donetsk currently…?
You are changing the question, since Russia’s violence does make Donbas part of Russia [to follow your logic] anway, but 72 was talking about democratic legitimacy and you damn well know it.
what’re your thoughts on the US bombing of panama city?
Having thoughts is probably too much to expect from a NAFO bot.
Whataboutism is your best defense, and a poor attempt at that?
Equating the two is hilarious. Even so I’m not excusing all the bullshit the US has done.
At least I can say the US has done some terrible shit without getting arrested or killed. Try saying anything bad about Russia or Putin in Russia.
Fun fact, the origin of “whataboutism” was its use as the phrase “whataboutery” during the Troubles in Ireland as the Irish accused the British of atrocities only to be dismissed as “whataboutery”
Weird how it’s always used as a thought terminating cliche to prevent criticism of the dominant empire, huh!
Good thing it only works on idiots like you
Again, since you’re reading comprehension sucks…
I’m not the one dismissing what any country has done. I’m saying they should both be held accountable.
The fact that the comment I was originally replying to was using that justification goes along with what you just said… which is pointing out what someone else did is no justification for any action. They both should be taken for what they are and judged accordingly.
I’m gonna try to follow your logic in good faith. If both Russia and the US should be held accountable for their crimes, then who should actually hold them accountable?
NATO is the international arm of the US military and it has committed war crimes over its entire decades of existence, some of the most recent ones in Iraq, Libya, and Syria. If the US is to be held equally accountable for their actions as the RF should be, then all NATO operations should be held under the same scrutiny.
So by this logic how can you support a NATO in it’s actions in Ukraine. Before Russia invaded, NATO was supported the bombing of the Donbass and the destruction of that region. If the US and NATO has a history of destabilizing regions through warfare for the benefit of the US, how can any of their actions be justified?
you’re reading comprehension sucks
If you say that to point the hypocrisy in someone’s statement is a fallacy then everyone can just blame each other for basically anything and nothing constructive comes out.
Oh you drink water? Hitler did too. What do you mean everyone drinks water? That’s whataboutism
Huh??? what the hell do you think Assange did?
Leaking confidential information, as damning as it may be, is illegal.
Again, try saying anything bad about Putin or Russia in Russia. At least I can speak freely and scream from the rooftops about the shitty parts of the US. Go ahead.
You when the US commits war crimes: :)
You when their war crimes are reported on: >:(
At least I can speak freely and scream from the rooftops about the shitty parts of the US
If you do this in the US you are getting a visit from the police
Damn thats crazy, the shit that might hurt the state is illegal(and therefore presumably justifiable to punish) while you get to do all the intellectual jerkoffs you want with no effect on anything?
Real lucky you get to live in freedomland.
So saying you disagree with something your government did is hurting the state? Lol
At least I can say the US has done some terrible shit without getting arrested or killed.
Leaking confidential information, as damning as it may be, is illegal.
Do you see how these two statements cannot be true at the same time?
Again, purposely digging up confidential information and then exposing it is illegal.
Talking realistically and honestly about something is freedom of speech.
If you are that dense that you think those are the same things, then I might as well talk to a brick wall.
Again, purposely digging up confidential information and then exposing it is illegal.
Going up to Snowden and saying “Erm, sir, you might have told us that the American government is spying on us every moment of our lives, but, erm, actshually, doing that was illegal, so unfortunately, sir, you are not epic and you don’t deserve freedom of speech protections”
what an absolute fucking dweeb, holy shit
I will go tell Putin to make it “confidential information” that he’s a bad person, then maybe you’ll shut the fuck up for a single moment of your life because a bootlicker like you will be forced to obey it if you ever go there
Leaking confidential information, as damning as it may be, is illegal.
He didn’t leak any info, he published already leaked info. There is an important legal distinction.
At least I can speak freely and scream from the rooftops about the shitty parts of the US
Someone’s never heard of the Free Speech fights.
You can and will be jailed just for saying shit, if people start to listen to you and you’re saying the wrong shit. Your “freedom of speech” is as worthless as used toilet paper the moment a judge decides to issue an injunction against you i.e. the strikes in Harlan County in the 70s had judges jailing people for using the word “scab.”
Also fun fact I learned today, remember the Kent State Massacre? People were ordered to apologize for being shot just to get compensation, which only covered legal defenses. Land of the fucking free, lmao
Leaking confidential information, as damning as it may be, is illegal.
When your life is made illegal, what’re you gonna do, liberal? Roll over for the bourgeois state like a good boy?
No, not at all.
Freedom of speech protects you from being prosecuted for saying something.
It doesn’t protect you from any other consequences of what you say.
I did not say that you can say anything with no consequences whatsoever
You’re just being obtuse and refusing to understand reality, so as not to lose an argument or learn something.
They were talking about prosecution
Rooftops are generally a good place to speek freely, even in an oppressive country.
Try speaking about US atrocities at work. If you lose your job, you’re not free.
I used to work for the US government and we all talked shit about it at work. So your making shit up
Working at the dmv and talking about how incompetent bureaucracy are isn’t the kind of talking we’re talking about
Go work for a railroad and try to organize a general strike and tell me how safe you feel
dang putin must have snipers everywhere to enforce that
that’s impossible, the entire Russian army has been destroyed a hundred times now by Ukraine, over 15 million Russian troops have been killed last time I checked, there are no snipers left
the Zaporozhye front is just the Ukrainians doing a giant war re-enactment of what would have happened if there were any Russians left alive, but due to the 1:984219 casualty ratio, there aren’t any Russians left
you mean there are not snipers in every square meter of siberia watching out for siberian separatists?
He probably would if he could.
Damn the butthurt Russians are out in force today.
Imagine being so chauvinistic that you’re outright unable to conceive of the idea that someone might hold an opinion for any reason other than blind patriotism. You’ve become brainwashed to a point where you can’t imagine that the governments of the United States and its allies, which have been caught spreading or taking advantage of lie after lie after lie after lie after lie in order to achieve geopolitical victories over nations they considered to be a political or economic threat, might be lying in their characterization of the government of Russia, which has repeatedly stood in the way of American and Western European attempts to both expand into Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe politically, as well as exploit Ukraine economically.
I need you to understand that I am not being hyperbolic when I say that you and people who share your views are what is wrong with humanity in the present day. As long as people like you continue to be either willing or gullible enough to keep believing the lies of a geopolitical block as untrustworthy as the United States and its allies solely because you are incapable of looking past your country’s propaganda and seeing your own leaders as anything other than the righteous beacons of humanity that they try to make themselves appear to be, humanity will almost certainly be doomed to enter pointless conflicts and cause mass destruction until we drive our own species off of a cliff.
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Why do you call the people disagreeing with you Russians?
You cant even meaningfully add to a joke bc youre so childishly resentful. You take this arguing so much more seriously than us while we just casually have the information youre missing, and it looks hilarious.
no, he didn’t leak shit, he published leaked information what the hell.
and you can only do that right now because the ruling class isn’t concerned about possible socialist revolution, I advise you to read up on the 1st and 2nd Red Scares!
(also, who fucking cares if you can complain about something if you can’t actually change the situation???)
So when a cop kills an innocent person I’m just not supposed to be upset?
Again, I can spread the word and my viewpoint and not be arrested/killed, at least legally. It’s not like Biden or Trump could have had me killed for saying it.
Whoa slow down, where did this cop come from? I swear you people are so morally bankrupt, you have to try and mindtrick someone into agreeing w/ a completely unrelated question. It’s so jarring and deceitful to read
The Uhuru House publically opposed the war effort in Ukraine and got raided, then had a bunch of their members locked up for allegedly being in cahoots with Russians. By default, your bullshit’s refuted.
So when a cop kills an innocent person I’m just not supposed to be upset?
Again, I can spread the word and my viewpoint and not be arrested/killed, at least legally. It’s not like Biden or Trump could have had me killed for saying it.
at least legally.
in awe at this one. Once again, if they think you’re a threat to state power do you think they give a single flying fuck about what’s legal/illegal? do you think what’s being done to Assange is actually legal? he didn’t leak anything, he just published information given to him. Once again, if the there was a serious socialist threat to this country I promise you would be arrested/killed no matter what if it became known you were a vocal dissident, legality be damned
Leaking confidential information, as damning as it may be, is illegal.
The definition of right and wrong is always what is legal, that’s why when the ruling class buys political power through lobbying and other corruption, the ruling class becomes more legally right in whatever they want to do!
The definition of right and wrong is always what is legal
Unless that law is a bad country’s law.
At least I can say the US has done some terrible shit without getting arrested or killed
Leaking confidential information, as damning as it may be, is illegal.
so I gather from these two statements that the first is incorrect
It’s like the two statues riddle but you lose no matter what and they wear CIA and NSA jackets.
Assange didn’t do anything illegal but even if he did you might as well be saying “criticizing Putin may the right thing do, but it’s illegal so you shouldn’t do it.”
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silly communist, don’t you know that AMERICAN law applies everywhere in the world? Heh, you really lack a geopolitical education and it shows 😎
(I am being facetious pls don’t block me)
Whataboutism is just a rhetorical device trolls try to use to create a double standard for themselves and everyone else when faced with the fact that their side does all the same things they accuse others of. Meanwhile, imagine being such an utter ignoramus to be unaware of all the political violence that US does.
No, it’s because two wrongs don’t make a right. You can point out shit the US has done all day and I’ll probably agree with you. But it doesn’t make what Russia did okay.
Yeah whataboutism is fucking retarded. It’s no excuse or justification. It’s shit.
the problem isn’t necessarily pointing out the problems with any particular country, that can be done as a legitimate discussion, what gets really fucking annoying is when people only talk about the problems with a certain country and then when questioned, are like “Oh, no! We also hate it when America does this thing! We’re just talking about X country right now!” when that’s clearly false. like, you say “Fuck China for having mass surveillance” on reddit and you get 100k upvotes, 20 platinum awards and some dude’s firstborn son, whereas if you say “Fuck America for having mass surveillance” you’ll get “Hm, well, you see, this is a complicated topic, because on the one hand…” or even just “Yeah, but it’s nothing compared to China though!”
the problem is also when what you’re talking about is necessarily a comparison because no action exists in a vacuum free of context. if I say “The US is an awful, imperialist country that has invaded all these nations, and NATO has also invaded and destroyed nations, and we should not support them even if Russia is doing a bad thing because Russia’s death toll is so much lower than the West’s” then all I would get on most lib platforms is “That history doesn’t matter! What matters is the here and now, when Russia is doing a bad thing and NATO currently, at this precise moment in time, is not! Bad things are bad things! You can’t wave them away through context!”
but the question isn’t “Is Russia doing a bad thing”, I don’t think anybody would deny except the most fervent Russian nationalist that Russia has done at least some bad things in Ukraine, the question is “Who should we support in this war” and so the fact that NATO and the US has killed tens of millions of people within the lifetime of the current president and doomed hundreds of millions more to backbreaking labor in mines and plantations and sweatshops, and Russia, well, hasn’t, is a perfectly pertinent point to make when asking who to support. This is also why liberals are so utterly gobsmacked when third-world countries don’t come out against Russia, because they have been on the receiving end of this campaign of carnage that the US has wrought around the world and so, logically, think Russia is the lesser of two evils. can’t they see that Russia is evil! can’t they see that Putler is the devil doing a genocide!? they must be brainwashed by Russian disinformation propaganda! we must up our efforts to spread Correct Information!
No, it’s because two wrongs don’t make a right. You can point out shit the US has done all day and I’ll probably agree with you. But it doesn’t make what Russia did okay.
Yeah whataboutism is fucking retarded. It’s no excuse or justification. It’s shit.
Cool ableist slurs go fuck yourself
we need a banhammer emoji, specifically for these instances
here is one for youThank you, comrade
Keep hoping. Better yet, go there and fight yourself if you think it’s so important. But you won’t. You’ll just move your outrage to the next target that US propaganda will point you to.
Why do you lot keep posting these dumb pictures?
