Look it’s important that Western countries don’t show the full vid, otherwise their citizens would think they can do the same to cops in the US, can you imagine what they’d do to a guy walking around on one of their armored vehicles?
So that’s why China allows open conversation about the incident right? If it’s all just a big misunderstanding, they should be happy to allow their citizens to share the facts. Certainly they wouldn’t take steps to ban all mention of the incident as if there was something terrible there they wanted to hide.
So that’s why China allows open conversation about the incident right?
This actually gets discussed in Chinese state media. The idea that people get -500 social credit score when they barely mention Tiananmen Square is mostly Western propaganda. Maybe somebody else will link you articles about this from China, i’m not gonna bother because they’ve already been linked ITT and you liberals don’t read them anyway. But of course they’re around.
Your post also shows a vast ignorance about how propaganda even works in the first place, whether we’re talking China or the USA or any other country. That’s because you get your ideas about politics from idiots like the antisemitic snitch and cousin r*pist George Orwell and then you think dictatorships work like 1984 and completely miss that you’re living in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Propaganda is not about hiding things from the public, that simply doesn’t work well enough. You can downplay the truth, but you’ll never get rid of it entirely. We’re one example of that, existing and driving you nuts in spite of the largest propaganda and surveilance apparatus in the world working against us. And the same applies for the smaller, less overarching, less well funded Chinese “intelligence community”, as you’d call their spies and snitches and secret police if they were Western spies and snitches and secret police. For example, anybody in China can install a VPN and look at Western news sources if they care, and a lot of younger people actually do that, just as you can come here and get exposed to facts that counter Western narratives.This is why propaganda works by emphasizing what you want the people to hear to the point were the noise drowns out what you do not want them to hear. By establishing counter-narratives to the truth. For example, you get flooded with the still image of the guy standing in front of the tank instead of the full video. You get fed the story about China somehow wafflestomping 10.000 corpses down the sewer drains by rolling over them with tanks until they’re mush, as if that could even work, even though the only source for this is something 1 (in words: ONE) British diplomat has allegedly heard from somebody in Beijing. But because people like you never actually check their sources, you think there’s hundreds of accounts of that incident just because there’s hundreds of articles citing that one unnamed British diplomat or each other, and that’s all over reddit, that site that has not only ruined your sense of humor and your ability to ever have a good faith discussion with another human being again, but that has also turned you into a mindless drone lashing out at anybody questioning the racist, national chauvinist narratives that have been blared into your ears until you came here 3 months because the pedophile spez threatened to take away the apps that allowed you to more conveniently doomscroll that hellsite on your mobile phone.
What you usually do not get to see in Western media are the Chinese cop strung up on a lamppost and set on fire by the protesters, or that many of the counterrevolutionaries where, what a surprise, reactionaries that earlier the same year took part in riots against African exchange students at Chinese universities.
Anyway, it was fun yelling at you, have a nice day.
My favourite bit about the video is that the tank column is leaving Tiananmen when this guy stops them, and I always get the impression he’s essentially asking the tankers to go back to the Square.
Naturally the lib framing is that he’s blocking them from entering the Square
Sonnad, Nikhil (3 June 2019). “261 ways to refer to the Tiananmen Square massacre in China”. Quartz. Retrieved 21 June 2022.
Su, Alice (24 June 2021). “He tried to commemorate erased history. China detained him, then erased that too”. Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 10 May 2022.
“I watched the 1989 Tiananmen uprising”. LA Times. 30 May 2019.
“As China Cracks Down on Dissent, New York City Gives Refuge to Exhibit Remembering Tiananmen Square”. US News & World Report. 1 June 2023. Retrieved 23 July 2023.
Brook 1998, p. 216.
Lim 2014a, pp. 34–35.
Nathan 2001.
Lin, Chun (2006). The transformation of Chinese socialism. Durham [N.C.]: Duke University Press. p. 211. ISBN 978-0822337850. OCLC 63178961.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 171.
Saich 1990, p. 172.
Thomas 2006.
p. 468. “After Li’s report the Elders voiced their anger atthe foreign and domestic enemies who were manipulating the students, and their con- viction that there was no choice left but to clear the Square by force. Nonetheless, most of the Elders hoped the job could be done without casualties, and Deng Xiaop- ing repeated his insistence that nothing should stop the momentum of reform and opening.” Nathan, Andrew J.; Link, Perry; Liang, Zhang (2002). “The Tiananmen Papers”. Foreign Affairs. 80 (1): 468–477. doi:10.2307/20050041. JSTOR 20050041. Retrieved 29 June 2023.
Miles 2009.
Declassified British cable.
How Many Died 1990.
Sino-American relations 1991, p. 445.
Brook 1998, p. 154.
Kristof: Reassessing Casualties.
Richelson & Evans 1999.
Calls for Justice 2004.
“Tiananmen Square incident”. Britannica. Retrieved 9 July 2023.
Dube 2014.
“20 Years After Tiananmen Square”. NPR. Retrieved 18 August 2023.
Miles 1997, p. 28.
“Deng Xiaoping’s Southern Tour” (PDF). Berkshire Publishing Group LLC. 2009. Archived (PDF) from the original on 17 May 2017.
Ma, Damien (23 January 2012). “After 20 Years of ‘Peaceful Evolution,’ China Faces Another Historic Moment”. The Atlantic. Archived from the original on 16 August 2019. Retrieved 1 May 2020.
“The inside story of the propaganda fightback for Deng’s reforms”. South China Morning Post. 14 November 2018. Archived from the original on 26 February 2020. Retrieved 1 May 2020.
Bodeen, Christopher (3 June 2019). “Prosperity, repression mark China 30 years after Tiananmen”. AP News. Archived from the original on 3 June 2019. Retrieved 3 June 2019.
Nathan 2009.
Goodman 1994, p. 112.
Vogel 2011, p. 634.
China tightens information.
Yuen, Chantal (13 June 2016). “Bus driver in ‘8964’ massacre memento suspended for 3 months - report”. Hong Kong Free Press HKFP. Archived from the original on 17 April 2023. Retrieved 17 April 2023.
Baum 1996, p. 283.
Shen, Baoxiang. “《亲历拨乱反正》：拨乱反正的日日夜夜”. www.hybsl.cn (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 3 January 2021. Retrieved 29 April 2020.
“Huíshǒu 1978 – Lìshǐ zài zhèlǐ zhuǎnzhé” 回首1978 – 历史在这里转折. Rénmín Rìbào 人民日报 [People’s Daily] (in Chinese). Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party. Archived from the original on 11 May 2008. Retrieved 29 April 2020.
Tom Phillips (11 May 2016). “The Cultural Revolution”. The Guardian. Retrieved 5 November 2021.
Naughton 2007.
Worden, Robert (1987). “A Country Study: China”. Library of Congress. Archived from the original on 16 July 2012.
Naughton 2007, p. 91.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 120.
D. Zhao 2001, Chapter 5: On the Eve of the 1989 Movement.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 127.
Vogel 2011, pp. 600–601.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 81.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 82.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 84.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 89.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 137.
Wang 2006, p. 57.
The Gate of Heavenly 1995.
D. Zhao 2001, pp. 64, 215.
E. Cheng 2009, p. 33.
Wang 2006, pp. 56–57.
Spence 1999, p. 685.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 138.
Deng, Xiaoping. “On the Reform of the System of Party and State Leadership”. en.people.cn. Archived from the original on 2 March 2018. Retrieved 29 April 2020.
Ng-Quinn, Michael (1982). “Deng Xiaoping’s Political Reform and Political Order”. Asian Survey. 22 (12): 1187–1205. doi:10.2307/2644047. ISSN 0004-4687. JSTOR 2644047.
Whyte, Martin King (1993). “Deng Xiaoping: The Social Reformer”. The China Quarterly. 135 (135): 515–535. doi:10.1017/S0305741000013898. ISSN 0305-7410. JSTOR 654100. S2CID 135471151.
Finch, George (2007). “Modern Chinese Constitutionalism: Reflections of Economic Change”. Willamette Journal of International Law and Dispute Resolution. 15 (1): 75–110. ISSN 1521-0235. JSTOR 26211714.
Shigong, Jiang (2014). “Chinese-Style Constitutionalism: On Backer’s Chinese Party-State Constitutionalism”. Modern China. 40 (2): 133–167. doi:10.1177/0097700413511313. ISSN 0097-7004. JSTOR 24575589. S2CID 144236160.
Wu, Wei (18 March 2014). 邓小平为什么重提政治体制改革？. The New York Times (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 21 October 2019. Retrieved 3 May 2020.
Bao, Tong (4 June 2015). 鲍彤纪念六四，兼谈邓小平与中国的腐败. The New York Times (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 23 October 2019. Retrieved 3 May 2020.
Yan, Jiaqi (1992). Toward a Democratic China: The Intellectual Autobiography of Yan Jiaqi. University of Hawaii Press. ISBN 978-0824815011. Archived from the original on 1 October 2020. Retrieved 30 September 2020.
Ning, Lou (1993). Chinese Democracy and the Crisis of 1989: Chinese and American Reflections. SUNY Press. ISBN 978-0791412695. Archived from the original on 1 October 2020. Retrieved 30 September 2020.
Wu, Wei (15 December 2014). 赵紫阳与邓小平的两条政改路线. New York Times (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 21 October 2019. Retrieved 3 May 2020.
Wu, Wei (7 July 2014). 邓小平谈不要照搬三权分立. New York Times (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 16 December 2019. Retrieved 3 May 2020.
hermes (4 June 2019). “Tiananmen 30 years on: A China that’s averse to political reforms – for now”. The Straits Times. Archived from the original on 8 June 2019. Retrieved 3 May 2020.
Schram, Stuart R. (1988). “China after the 13th Congress”. The China Quarterly. 114 (114): 177–197. doi:10.1017/S0305741000026758. ISSN 0305-7410. JSTOR 654441. S2CID 154818820.
Dirlik, Arif (2019). “Postsocialism? Reflections on ‘socialism with Chinese characteristics’”. Bulletin of Concerned Asian Scholars. 21: 33–44. doi:10.1080/14672715.1989.10413190.
“1987: 13th CPC National Congress starts – China.org.cn”. www.china.org.cn. Archived from the original on 5 November 2012. Retrieved 4 May 2020.
Qiping, Luo., Yantting, Mai., Meifen, Liang., Li Peter., trans., Fons Lampoo., “Student Organizations and Strategies,” China Information Vol 5, No 2 (1990)
Goldman, Merle, Sowing the Seeds of Democracy in China. Cambridge Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1994
Zhang Liang, “An Emergency Report of the Beijing Party Committee” in The Tiananmen Papers (New York: Public Affairs, 2001). pp. 334-5.
“CIA man misread reaction, sources say”. The Vancouver Sun. 1992. Retrieved 3 July 2023.
Anderlini, Jamil (1 June 2014). “Tiananmen Square: the long shadow”. Financial Times. Retrieved 2 June 2014. The extraction missions, aided by MI6, the UK’s Secret Intelligence Service, and the CIA, according to many accounts, had scrambler devices, infrared signallers, night-vision goggles and weapons.
Calhoun 1989.
Pan 2008, p. 274.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 147.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 148.
L. Zhang 2001.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 149.
Walder & Gong 1993, pp. 1–2.
D. Zhao 2001, pp. 152–153.
Li 2010, 21 May entry.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 153.
Baum 1996, p. 248.
Pye 1990, p. 337.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 154.
Z. Zhao 2009.
Liu 1990, pp. 505–521.
Vogel 2011, pp. 603–606.
26 April Editorial 1995.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 155.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 157.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 156.
Vogel 2011, p. 608.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 159.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 161.
D. Zhao 2001, pp. 161–162.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 163.
E. Cheng 2009, pp. 612–614.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 167.
Amnesty International, 30 August 1989. Preliminary Findings on Killings of Unarmed Civilians, Arbitrary Arrests and Summary Executions Since 3 June 1989, p. 19.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 164.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 165.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 169.
Li 2010, 15 May entry.
Roberts 2011, p. 300.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 170.
Sarotte 2012, p. 165.
D. Zhao 2001, p. 181.
Li 2010, 17 May entry.
Nathan 2002, pp. 2–48.
Z. Zhao 2009, pp. 25–34.
MacFarquhar 2011, p. 443.
Z. Zhao 2009, p. 28.
Miles 1997.
Z. Zhao 2009, pp. 28–30.
Ignatius 2009, p. x.
Higgins, Andrew (14 September 1998). “Obituary: Yang Shangkun”. The Independent. Retrieved 8 August 2022.
Brook 1998, p. 41.
Pye 1990, p. 343.
Brook 1998, pp. 42–43.
Ignatius 2009, p. xv.
“Tremble & Obey”. Four Coners. Event occurs at 00:24:50. Archived from the original on 8 October 2019. Retrieved 30 September 2019.
Kevin D. Haggerty, Richard Victor Ericson (2006). The New Politics of Surveillance and Visibility. p. 204. ISBN 978-0802048783.
“Tremble & Obey”. Four Coners. Event occurs at 00:42:12. Archived from the original on 8 October 2019. Retrieved 30 September 2019.
Wright 1990, pp. 121–132.
dragonmui. “Playlist of ‘Democratic Songs for China’”. Archived from the original on 27 February 2019. Retrieved 22 October 2018 – via YouTube.
Macklin, Simon; Tang, John (27 May 1989). “Organisers ready for mass concert”. South China Morning Post. p. 3.
The thing to get is that there was no massacre on the square, and in fact there’s no verifiable evidence that anybody died there at all that day. Many people did die elsewhere, in street clashes with soldiers, after demonstrators killed and burned a few of them.
I would like to note also that bringing up events like Tiananmen Square, especially heavily propagandized and warped versions of them, without an understanding of the complex political context which led up to them, is not a gotcha, it’s just ignorant. Not saying you’re doing that or that you would do that, but it’s something others do frequently when they invoke it round here.
With no actual evidence, it just seems like China’s word against the US’s. Neither are sources I trust, and both have motives to lie. I’m just going to assume nothing.
I said there was no evidence that a massacre took place in Tiananmen Square. What actually took place there is well evidenced by eyewitness testimony, a fair bit of which is contained in the two sources I linked.
Edit: I also take issue with the assertion that both the US and China are equally untrustworthy, particularly when the Chinese government freely admits that violent clashes between civilians and PLA personnel took place that day, something they would certainly have incentive to lie about if they were as untrustworthy as all that.
I recall seeing eyewitness testimony supporting both sides. Although, its possible the testimonies I saw were about the clashes that China admits to, and were simply framed as being about a massacre. They didn’t seem very specific or definitive.
Even though the Chinese government admits to those violent clashes, its still very plausible they would lie about a massacre. Its much easier to justify that than it would be an actual massacre, especially when the civilians act violently. Its also possible that admitting some aspect of it would benefit them more than complete denial.
You’d have a point there, if there wasn’t ample photographic evidence which also suggests that no concerted massacre took place, in the square or elsewhere. All available photographic evidence that I’ve seen supports the Chinese government’s version of events: scattered street clashes which unfortunately featured some quite heavy duty violence, but no mass formation of tanks coming in and deliberately schwacking everybody in sight.
You make convincing arguments, and I’m sure you are correct to some degree. I do not believe that the dramatized events suggested by the west are accurate. But, I still think it was a disgusting waste of life that could potentially be described as a massacre.
I’m sorry, you’re actually being reasonable and in good faith. Some other people in your instance have shortened my fuse a bit when i see the @shitjustworks, and you didn’t deserve that. I’m going to reign it in, and i apologize again.
Thanks for genuiniely engaging with other people from hexbear on these issues
There is photographic evidence of what happened at the tiananmen massacre but when I posted it, it was immediately removed. It is well known that the Chinese censor their internet, so comments like this make me think that hexbear is participating in that censorship.
Oh, come off it. Your comment was removed because there was no content warning for violent images, which you were told and which is stated in the modlog.
Here, I’ll post your link with a CW and you can watch it stay up.
We don’t want this to be a space where people could randomly stumble across images of graphic violence they’re not prepared for. You’re not being censored by the CPC, dumbass.
Firstly, we insist on content warnings being applied to violent content of that sort.
Second, I’m guessing you didn’t bother to translate any of this or investigate the sources cited - or lack thereof, since most of these images lack citation or provenance. The one source I was able to follow back was an interview of the man who lost his legs, conducted by right wing rag the Epoch Times and signal boosted by noted CIA cutout Radio Free Asia. Most everything else in there is unsourced, and many of the captions just outright lie about what’s being depicted, such as the one claiming the crushed red motorcycle is actually a guy run over on his bike.
Important to note also, none of these pictures are claimed to have been taken in the square itself. That violence occurred elsewhere is not in doubt; I never claimed there wasn’t violence, and the Chinese government themselves acknowledge it. What often gets left out is that the student demonstrators initiated it, and even western journalists working with eyewitness testimony concede that the PLA operated with remarkable restraint until things boiled over.
Third, and this is a comparatively minor point, the site you link to is a noted right-leaning anti-communist news organization which I suspect has ties to RFA. Even if that weren’t the case, it doesn’t seem at all trustworthy, given its clear bias against the Chinese government.
Edit: Upon further investigation, I found that Fang Zheng, the man who claims his legs were crushed by a tank in an unprovoked attack by the PLA, is himself not a very trustworthy source. The one person who he identified as being able to corroborate his claims, declined to do so, saying that she didn’t remember being with him at all on the day that violence broke out. Also potentially significant, he’s a founder of the Chinese Democracy Education Foundation, a California-based nonprofit opposed to the Chinese government. The organization has worked with RFA, and Fang Zheng himself has attended Falun Gong rallies and apparently shares their insane organ harvesting conspiracy theories.
wikileaks published a private diplomatic cable stating that no one was killed in the square itself, although a smaller number of people did die in clashes elsewhere in Beijing, consistent with China’s own official account. (Here’s a Telegraph article on the cables).
tank man: the tanks in the video are leaving the square (you can see this in the uncropped footage) and it is broad daylight, whereas the main violence occurred at night.
the violence against troops was uncharacteristic of the previous tone of interactions between troops and protesters in the preceding weeks. Troops and protesters had peacefully coexisted, singing songs and sharing food together. (Here’s an article that goes into it a bit)
So you tankies agree that Tiananmen Square massacre happened? Good job
yes the tank man at tinyman square from that famous picture got squished like a grape by the tank
https://nitter.cz/fedurante/status/1533099332496502786
Look it’s important that Western countries don’t show the full vid, otherwise their citizens would think they can do the same to cops in the US, can you imagine what they’d do to a guy walking around on one of their armored vehicles?
So that’s why China allows open conversation about the incident right? If it’s all just a big misunderstanding, they should be happy to allow their citizens to share the facts. Certainly they wouldn’t take steps to ban all mention of the incident as if there was something terrible there they wanted to hide.
This actually gets discussed in Chinese state media. The idea that people get -500 social credit score when they barely mention Tiananmen Square is mostly Western propaganda. Maybe somebody else will link you articles about this from China, i’m not gonna bother because they’ve already been linked ITT and you liberals don’t read them anyway. But of course they’re around.
Your post also shows a vast ignorance about how propaganda even works in the first place, whether we’re talking China or the USA or any other country. That’s because you get your ideas about politics from idiots like the antisemitic snitch and cousin r*pist George Orwell and then you think dictatorships work like 1984 and completely miss that you’re living in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Propaganda is not about hiding things from the public, that simply doesn’t work well enough. You can downplay the truth, but you’ll never get rid of it entirely. We’re one example of that, existing and driving you nuts in spite of the largest propaganda and surveilance apparatus in the world working against us. And the same applies for the smaller, less overarching, less well funded Chinese “intelligence community”, as you’d call their spies and snitches and secret police if they were Western spies and snitches and secret police. For example, anybody in China can install a VPN and look at Western news sources if they care, and a lot of younger people actually do that, just as you can come here and get exposed to facts that counter Western narratives.This is why propaganda works by emphasizing what you want the people to hear to the point were the noise drowns out what you do not want them to hear. By establishing counter-narratives to the truth. For example, you get flooded with the still image of the guy standing in front of the tank instead of the full video. You get fed the story about China somehow wafflestomping 10.000 corpses down the sewer drains by rolling over them with tanks until they’re mush, as if that could even work, even though the only source for this is something 1 (in words: ONE) British diplomat has allegedly heard from somebody in Beijing. But because people like you never actually check their sources, you think there’s hundreds of accounts of that incident just because there’s hundreds of articles citing that one unnamed British diplomat or each other, and that’s all over reddit, that site that has not only ruined your sense of humor and your ability to ever have a good faith discussion with another human being again, but that has also turned you into a mindless drone lashing out at anybody questioning the racist, national chauvinist narratives that have been blared into your ears until you came here 3 months because the pedophile spez threatened to take away the apps that allowed you to more conveniently doomscroll that hellsite on your mobile phone.
What you usually do not get to see in Western media are the Chinese cop strung up on a lamppost and set on fire by the protesters, or that many of the counterrevolutionaries where, what a surprise, reactionaries that earlier the same year took part in riots against African exchange students at Chinese universities.
Anyway, it was fun yelling at you, have a nice day.
My favourite bit about the video is that the tank column is leaving Tiananmen when this guy stops them, and I always get the impression he’s essentially asking the tankers to go back to the Square.
Naturally the lib framing is that he’s blocking them from entering the Square
No, he just got massacred another way
source? 🤔
Sonnad, Nikhil (3 June 2019). “261 ways to refer to the Tiananmen Square massacre in China”. Quartz. Retrieved 21 June 2022. Su, Alice (24 June 2021). “He tried to commemorate erased history. China detained him, then erased that too”. Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 10 May 2022. “I watched the 1989 Tiananmen uprising”. LA Times. 30 May 2019. “As China Cracks Down on Dissent, New York City Gives Refuge to Exhibit Remembering Tiananmen Square”. US News & World Report. 1 June 2023. Retrieved 23 July 2023. Brook 1998, p. 216. Lim 2014a, pp. 34–35. Nathan 2001. Lin, Chun (2006). The transformation of Chinese socialism. Durham [N.C.]: Duke University Press. p. 211. ISBN 978-0822337850. OCLC 63178961. D. Zhao 2001, p. 171. Saich 1990, p. 172. Thomas 2006. p. 468. “After Li’s report the Elders voiced their anger atthe foreign and domestic enemies who were manipulating the students, and their con- viction that there was no choice left but to clear the Square by force. Nonetheless, most of the Elders hoped the job could be done without casualties, and Deng Xiaop- ing repeated his insistence that nothing should stop the momentum of reform and opening.” Nathan, Andrew J.; Link, Perry; Liang, Zhang (2002). “The Tiananmen Papers”. Foreign Affairs. 80 (1): 468–477. doi:10.2307/20050041. JSTOR 20050041. Retrieved 29 June 2023. Miles 2009. Declassified British cable. How Many Died 1990. Sino-American relations 1991, p. 445. Brook 1998, p. 154. Kristof: Reassessing Casualties. Richelson & Evans 1999. Calls for Justice 2004. “Tiananmen Square incident”. Britannica. Retrieved 9 July 2023. Dube 2014. “20 Years After Tiananmen Square”. NPR. Retrieved 18 August 2023. Miles 1997, p. 28. “Deng Xiaoping’s Southern Tour” (PDF). Berkshire Publishing Group LLC. 2009. Archived (PDF) from the original on 17 May 2017. Ma, Damien (23 January 2012). “After 20 Years of ‘Peaceful Evolution,’ China Faces Another Historic Moment”. The Atlantic. Archived from the original on 16 August 2019. Retrieved 1 May 2020. “The inside story of the propaganda fightback for Deng’s reforms”. South China Morning Post. 14 November 2018. Archived from the original on 26 February 2020. Retrieved 1 May 2020. Bodeen, Christopher (3 June 2019). “Prosperity, repression mark China 30 years after Tiananmen”. AP News. Archived from the original on 3 June 2019. Retrieved 3 June 2019. Nathan 2009. Goodman 1994, p. 112. Vogel 2011, p. 634. China tightens information. Yuen, Chantal (13 June 2016). “Bus driver in ‘8964’ massacre memento suspended for 3 months - report”. Hong Kong Free Press HKFP. Archived from the original on 17 April 2023. Retrieved 17 April 2023. Baum 1996, p. 283. Shen, Baoxiang. “《亲历拨乱反正》：拨乱反正的日日夜夜”. www.hybsl.cn (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 3 January 2021. Retrieved 29 April 2020. “Huíshǒu 1978 – Lìshǐ zài zhèlǐ zhuǎnzhé” 回首1978 – 历史在这里转折. Rénmín Rìbào 人民日报 [People’s Daily] (in Chinese). Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party. Archived from the original on 11 May 2008. Retrieved 29 April 2020. Tom Phillips (11 May 2016). “The Cultural Revolution”. The Guardian. Retrieved 5 November 2021. Naughton 2007. Worden, Robert (1987). “A Country Study: China”. Library of Congress. Archived from the original on 16 July 2012. Naughton 2007, p. 91. D. Zhao 2001, p. 120. D. Zhao 2001, Chapter 5: On the Eve of the 1989 Movement. D. Zhao 2001, p. 127. Vogel 2011, pp. 600–601. D. Zhao 2001, p. 81. D. Zhao 2001, p. 82. D. Zhao 2001, p. 84. D. Zhao 2001, p. 89. D. Zhao 2001, p. 137. Wang 2006, p. 57. The Gate of Heavenly 1995. D. Zhao 2001, pp. 64, 215. E. Cheng 2009, p. 33. Wang 2006, pp. 56–57. Spence 1999, p. 685. D. Zhao 2001, p. 138. Deng, Xiaoping. “On the Reform of the System of Party and State Leadership”. en.people.cn. Archived from the original on 2 March 2018. Retrieved 29 April 2020. Ng-Quinn, Michael (1982). “Deng Xiaoping’s Political Reform and Political Order”. Asian Survey. 22 (12): 1187–1205. doi:10.2307/2644047. ISSN 0004-4687. JSTOR 2644047. Whyte, Martin King (1993). “Deng Xiaoping: The Social Reformer”. The China Quarterly. 135 (135): 515–535. doi:10.1017/S0305741000013898. ISSN 0305-7410. JSTOR 654100. S2CID 135471151. Finch, George (2007). “Modern Chinese Constitutionalism: Reflections of Economic Change”. Willamette Journal of International Law and Dispute Resolution. 15 (1): 75–110. ISSN 1521-0235. JSTOR 26211714. Shigong, Jiang (2014). “Chinese-Style Constitutionalism: On Backer’s Chinese Party-State Constitutionalism”. Modern China. 40 (2): 133–167. doi:10.1177/0097700413511313. ISSN 0097-7004. JSTOR 24575589. S2CID 144236160. Wu, Wei (18 March 2014). 邓小平为什么重提政治体制改革？. The New York Times (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 21 October 2019. Retrieved 3 May 2020. Bao, Tong (4 June 2015). 鲍彤纪念六四，兼谈邓小平与中国的腐败. The New York Times (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 23 October 2019. Retrieved 3 May 2020. Yan, Jiaqi (1992). Toward a Democratic China: The Intellectual Autobiography of Yan Jiaqi. University of Hawaii Press. ISBN 978-0824815011. Archived from the original on 1 October 2020. Retrieved 30 September 2020. Ning, Lou (1993). Chinese Democracy and the Crisis of 1989: Chinese and American Reflections. SUNY Press. ISBN 978-0791412695. Archived from the original on 1 October 2020. Retrieved 30 September 2020. Wu, Wei (15 December 2014). 赵紫阳与邓小平的两条政改路线. New York Times (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 21 October 2019. Retrieved 3 May 2020. Wu, Wei (7 July 2014). 邓小平谈不要照搬三权分立. New York Times (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 16 December 2019. Retrieved 3 May 2020. hermes (4 June 2019). “Tiananmen 30 years on: A China that’s averse to political reforms – for now”. The Straits Times. Archived from the original on 8 June 2019. Retrieved 3 May 2020. Schram, Stuart R. (1988). “China after the 13th Congress”. The China Quarterly. 114 (114): 177–197. doi:10.1017/S0305741000026758. ISSN 0305-7410. JSTOR 654441. S2CID 154818820. Dirlik, Arif (2019). “Postsocialism? Reflections on ‘socialism with Chinese characteristics’”. Bulletin of Concerned Asian Scholars. 21: 33–44. doi:10.1080/14672715.1989.10413190. “1987: 13th CPC National Congress starts – China.org.cn”. www.china.org.cn. Archived from the original on 5 November 2012. Retrieved 4 May 2020. Qiping, Luo., Yantting, Mai., Meifen, Liang., Li Peter., trans., Fons Lampoo., “Student Organizations and Strategies,” China Information Vol 5, No 2 (1990) Goldman, Merle, Sowing the Seeds of Democracy in China. Cambridge Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1994 Zhang Liang, “An Emergency Report of the Beijing Party Committee” in The Tiananmen Papers (New York: Public Affairs, 2001). pp. 334-5. “CIA man misread reaction, sources say”. The Vancouver Sun. 1992. Retrieved 3 July 2023. Anderlini, Jamil (1 June 2014). “Tiananmen Square: the long shadow”. Financial Times. Retrieved 2 June 2014. The extraction missions, aided by MI6, the UK’s Secret Intelligence Service, and the CIA, according to many accounts, had scrambler devices, infrared signallers, night-vision goggles and weapons. Calhoun 1989. Pan 2008, p. 274. D. Zhao 2001, p. 147. D. Zhao 2001, p. 148. L. Zhang 2001. D. Zhao 2001, p. 149. Walder & Gong 1993, pp. 1–2. D. Zhao 2001, pp. 152–153. Li 2010, 21 May entry. D. Zhao 2001, p. 153. Baum 1996, p. 248. Pye 1990, p. 337. D. Zhao 2001, p. 154. Z. Zhao 2009. Liu 1990, pp. 505–521. Vogel 2011, pp. 603–606. 26 April Editorial 1995. D. Zhao 2001, p. 155. D. Zhao 2001, p. 157. D. Zhao 2001, p. 156. Vogel 2011, p. 608. D. Zhao 2001, p. 159. D. Zhao 2001, p. 161. D. Zhao 2001, pp. 161–162. D. Zhao 2001, p. 163. E. Cheng 2009, pp. 612–614. D. Zhao 2001, p. 167. Amnesty International, 30 August 1989. Preliminary Findings on Killings of Unarmed Civilians, Arbitrary Arrests and Summary Executions Since 3 June 1989, p. 19. D. Zhao 2001, p. 164. D. Zhao 2001, p. 165. D. Zhao 2001, p. 169. Li 2010, 15 May entry. Roberts 2011, p. 300. D. Zhao 2001, p. 170. Sarotte 2012, p. 165. D. Zhao 2001, p. 181. Li 2010, 17 May entry. Nathan 2002, pp. 2–48. Z. Zhao 2009, pp. 25–34. MacFarquhar 2011, p. 443. Z. Zhao 2009, p. 28. Miles 1997. Z. Zhao 2009, pp. 28–30. Ignatius 2009, p. x. Higgins, Andrew (14 September 1998). “Obituary: Yang Shangkun”. The Independent. Retrieved 8 August 2022. Brook 1998, p. 41. Pye 1990, p. 343. Brook 1998, pp. 42–43. Ignatius 2009, p. xv. “Tremble & Obey”. Four Coners. Event occurs at 00:24:50. Archived from the original on 8 October 2019. Retrieved 30 September 2019. Kevin D. Haggerty, Richard Victor Ericson (2006). The New Politics of Surveillance and Visibility. p. 204. ISBN 978-0802048783. “Tremble & Obey”. Four Coners. Event occurs at 00:42:12. Archived from the original on 8 October 2019. Retrieved 30 September 2019. Wright 1990, pp. 121–132. dragonmui. “Playlist of ‘Democratic Songs for China’”. Archived from the original on 27 February 2019. Retrieved 22 October 2018 – via YouTube. Macklin, Simon; Tang, John (27 May 1989). “Organisers ready for mass concert”. South China Morning Post. p. 3.
cool spam, any source on the tank man from the video being killed though?
I thought hexbears love source spamming. Dig it out of the sources yourself
does any specific source there claim or show the tank guy being killed?
Yeah, it’s in there
‘massacre’
What do you think happened exactly?
https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt-2/
Edit: the other source I was looking for
https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php
The thing to get is that there was no massacre on the square, and in fact there’s no verifiable evidence that anybody died there at all that day. Many people did die elsewhere, in street clashes with soldiers, after demonstrators killed and burned a few of them.
I would like to note also that bringing up events like Tiananmen Square, especially heavily propagandized and warped versions of them, without an understanding of the complex political context which led up to them, is not a gotcha, it’s just ignorant. Not saying you’re doing that or that you would do that, but it’s something others do frequently when they invoke it round here.
US Military Pysops Division literally bragged about how successful they were with Tiananmen in this recruitment video
https://youtu.be/VA4e0NqyYMw
Edit: Found out about this video from this article which was linked on hexbear lol https://www.fridayeveryday.com/how-psy-ops-warriors-fooled-me-about-tiananmen-square-a-warning/
Ah, I remember that. Almost feels like the cocky bastards are mocking us at this point.
With no actual evidence, it just seems like China’s word against the US’s. Neither are sources I trust, and both have motives to lie. I’m just going to assume nothing.
Can you possibly explain why the western diplomats stationed there told their home countries nothing happened in diplomatic cables?
Why would they do that if it was real?
I said there was no evidence that a massacre took place in Tiananmen Square. What actually took place there is well evidenced by eyewitness testimony, a fair bit of which is contained in the two sources I linked.
Edit: I also take issue with the assertion that both the US and China are equally untrustworthy, particularly when the Chinese government freely admits that violent clashes between civilians and PLA personnel took place that day, something they would certainly have incentive to lie about if they were as untrustworthy as all that.
I recall seeing eyewitness testimony supporting both sides. Although, its possible the testimonies I saw were about the clashes that China admits to, and were simply framed as being about a massacre. They didn’t seem very specific or definitive.
Even though the Chinese government admits to those violent clashes, its still very plausible they would lie about a massacre. Its much easier to justify that than it would be an actual massacre, especially when the civilians act violently. Its also possible that admitting some aspect of it would benefit them more than complete denial.
You’d have a point there, if there wasn’t ample photographic evidence which also suggests that no concerted massacre took place, in the square or elsewhere. All available photographic evidence that I’ve seen supports the Chinese government’s version of events: scattered street clashes which unfortunately featured some quite heavy duty violence, but no mass formation of tanks coming in and deliberately schwacking everybody in sight.
You make convincing arguments, and I’m sure you are correct to some degree. I do not believe that the dramatized events suggested by the west are accurate. But, I still think it was a disgusting waste of life that could potentially be described as a massacre.
deleted by creator
I don’t trust anyone, so i will believe the US
That is not what I said
I’m sorry, you’re actually being reasonable and in good faith. Some other people in your instance have shortened my fuse a bit when i see the @shitjustworks, and you didn’t deserve that. I’m going to reign it in, and i apologize again.
Thanks for genuiniely engaging with other people from hexbear on these issues
Which side allows it to be discussed?
There’s your answer.
There is photographic evidence of what happened at the tiananmen massacre but when I posted it, it was immediately removed. It is well known that the Chinese censor their internet, so comments like this make me think that hexbear is participating in that censorship.
Oh, come off it. Your comment was removed because there was no content warning for violent images, which you were told and which is stated in the modlog.
Here, I’ll post your link with a CW and you can watch it stay up.
CW: Violence, Gore
https://www.aboluowang.com/2008/0529/89034_3.html
We don’t want this to be a space where people could randomly stumble across images of graphic violence they’re not prepared for. You’re not being censored by the CPC, dumbass.
I clearly stated it was pictures of a massacre. Next time I’ll add additional tags. I guess I expected some sort of comment, reply, or message.
Check modlog to see removal reason
Removed by mod
Firstly, we insist on content warnings being applied to violent content of that sort.
Second, I’m guessing you didn’t bother to translate any of this or investigate the sources cited - or lack thereof, since most of these images lack citation or provenance. The one source I was able to follow back was an interview of the man who lost his legs, conducted by right wing rag the Epoch Times and signal boosted by noted CIA cutout Radio Free Asia. Most everything else in there is unsourced, and many of the captions just outright lie about what’s being depicted, such as the one claiming the crushed red motorcycle is actually a guy run over on his bike.
Important to note also, none of these pictures are claimed to have been taken in the square itself. That violence occurred elsewhere is not in doubt; I never claimed there wasn’t violence, and the Chinese government themselves acknowledge it. What often gets left out is that the student demonstrators initiated it, and even western journalists working with eyewitness testimony concede that the PLA operated with remarkable restraint until things boiled over.
Third, and this is a comparatively minor point, the site you link to is a noted right-leaning anti-communist news organization which I suspect has ties to RFA. Even if that weren’t the case, it doesn’t seem at all trustworthy, given its clear bias against the Chinese government.
Edit: Upon further investigation, I found that Fang Zheng, the man who claims his legs were crushed by a tank in an unprovoked attack by the PLA, is himself not a very trustworthy source. The one person who he identified as being able to corroborate his claims, declined to do so, saying that she didn’t remember being with him at all on the day that violence broke out. Also potentially significant, he’s a founder of the Chinese Democracy Education Foundation, a California-based nonprofit opposed to the Chinese government. The organization has worked with RFA, and Fang Zheng himself has attended Falun Gong rallies and apparently shares their insane organ harvesting conspiracy theories.
Is this really what you’re giving us?
Good job knowing words!
Tianamen and the official narrative
Reposted from elsewhere.