I am generally against defederation and censorship.
In response to the OP of this topic though, people hate hexbears because of the constant hardcore brigading and the huge inline image abuse.
It’s annoying as fuck. As soon as you smell a “lib”, even though you are usually wrong, it just turns into a massive dogpile on anyone who doesn’t share your identical belief structure.
That isn’t debate, it’s bullying. You have the numbers to pull it off but if it carries on you will absolutely end up defederated from everywhere.
Yes, you are absolutely the smartest ones in the room. All rooms. At all times.
As opposed to you, who definitely doesn’t roleplay being the “smartest one in the room” and speak in condescending generalizations about a large group of political others. Never ever.
If you are still seriously reading communist theory beyond the age of 20, I’ve got some truly terrible news for you. You should probably stay out of rooms altogether before anyone puts it together for you.
Mate pull the other one. You write like a yank and you spell like one too. It takes 5 seconds to see every single little thing in your user history is american, not british.
Yep. Doesn’t change where I was born. Us filthy “libs” are a bit more mobile than you lot. I’ve lived in a lot of countries, and I’ve visited half the world including China which is why I don’t need to engage any further on this. None of you have a clue what you are talking about. You are singing the praises of a country that is a living hell for 99% of its inhabitants, even moreso than filthy capitalist strongholds.
Your point was “No adult reads Marx!”, which I disproved readily with people of status and learned people that do.
The funny thing is that one of the professors does actually carry out farm labour, as they are involved in international brigades and works for 30 years for food security with sustainable practices in precarious countries. Did quite a bit of their study in AES countries, too.
I would start with casting you out to do farm labour (which you seem so into) and also having to read/discuss various things, too.
There’s this reactionary trope that Communism is just something teenagers who have never had real jobs are into, that somehow the basement-dwelling children of 1st world small business owners are able to easily blaze through all The Manifesto, Grundrisse, Anti-Duhring, German ideology, All 3 volumes of Das Kapital, All 3 volumes of Theories of Surplus Value, etc. etc. etc. before they’re old enough to drink, and then after getting an associates degree abandon it because they learned to adult… it’s patently absurd. If anything the type of people in question don’t even begin to question Capitalism until they’re well into their 20s and sufficiently addled with student loan debt and long hours and a bleaker future than their parents.
Okay, explain how the following mathematical formula that’s used to examine the rate of profits of a company, which tends to fall, is invalid and shouldn’t be studied
Yes who would ever want to study the leaders of succesful revolutions? Why should we want to learn from those that managed to fight off the capitalists?
Also that sectarianism is probably working super well for you. Great way to build a mass movement.
You’re just parroting the most basic of chud clichés, but I guess that shouldn’t be surprising when you’re petite bourgeoisie
No, we are all just slightly older than you - the age where you actually do figure everything out for real this time. Big old people just doesn’t want you to know.
That is the best, most comprehensive and cohesive reply I’ve received online for over a decade. Please don’t take my lack of any further debate as a sign of disrespect, you’ve actually given me some things to think on.
Viewing the entire world through the American lens is folly.
i’m not american and i’m fine with calling these people anarcho-bidenists, it’s just a way of saying some anarchists (especially western ones) are actually just radlibs, whether in awareness of it or not
I am willing to bet that you are speaking from a country that America drags along in its wake, so you remain a bidenist no matter how many snide remarks you make about ze stupid Americans.
Brigading is a made-up reddit thing. It used to be normal for forums to “raid” other forums, and if you couldn’t deal with that, it was on you. However we are not “raiding” there is no organised movement to go somewhere and post on it. We see the same posts pop up in “all”, and we have a large and active userbase, that’s all that’s happening.
huge inline image abuse
Yeah, that bug is getting worked on.
As soon as you smell a “lib”, even though you are usually wrong, it just turns into a massive dogpile on anyone who doesn’t share your identical belief structure
Yeah that’s the story, but it’s not really what I’ve been observing. Plenty of people that disagree with the hexbear userbase have had nice discussions. Generally I see users from other instances post condescending “gotchas” which then, rightly, get dogpiled on. They then cry “foul” as if they didn’t themselves initiate the interaction on those terms. Either that or they will be met by a user willing to engage in good-faith discussion, but they instead choose to continue with condescention. I see a lot of “I’m not reading all that” and “lmao you really believe that?” in response to well-thought out responses, not to mention the many accusations of being a bot. These users are then treated as condescending dickheads, because hexbear has had a lot of issues with wreckers, so there’s a pretty low tolerance for that kinda stuff. Hexbear generally has a hostile culture to bad-faith debatebro tactics.
Disagreements are common, so it’s not really that. It’s just a question of wether they’re engaging in good faith or not. I see plenty of users post about stuff that’s well outside the general culture, that then have a nice discussion.
Regarding being “wrong about lib” I’m gonna disagree again. I think you have a different definition of what that is. Oftentimes we think of ourselves as being “leftists” or whatever, but by our words and actions we support the current (neo-liberal) system. Then it does not matter what we identify as, if we’re still furthering something else. If you’re interested in that kinda stuff you might want to read Combat Liberalism. It’s pretty short, so it’s a nice and quick primer.
Brigading is a made-up reddit thing. It used to be normal for forums to “raid” other forums, and if you couldn’t deal with that, it was on you. However we are not “raiding” there is no organised movement to go somewhere and post on it. We see the same posts pop up in “all”, and we have a large and active userbase, that’s all that’s happening.
You realise we can access hexbear.net and see the local posts? It’s absolutely coordinated behaviour. Hexbear users post links to a given thread from another instance in chat or chapo or wherever with a suitably inflammatory title along with a call to arms along the lines of “Look at this terrible liberal take, OMG the entire cookie baking community is full of bigots and transphobes. Cookie bakers are bourgeois as hell!”. Cue your entire community piling in to the cookie baking community to completely destroy all discussion of baking cookies until they get bored and move on.
You spend a lot of time talking about good faith discussions but from my perspective it’s the hexbear community that isn’t acting in good faith in most instances.
Regarding being “wrong about lib” I’m gonna disagree again. I think you have a different definition of what that is. Oftentimes we think of ourselves as being “leftists” or whatever, but by our words and actions we support the current (neo-liberal) system. Then it does not matter what we identify as, if we’re still furthering something else. If you’re interested in that kinda stuff you might want to read Combat Liberalism. It’s pretty short, so it’s a nice and quick primer.
I accept this, and I am guilty of this to the extreme. I was extremely politically active in my late teens and early 20’s, and active in the labor movement. I have the criminal record as proof. I’m old as fuck now, and I have several people that depend on me NOT being in jail, and to continue pretending to be a functional member of our neo-liberal society to keep them from starving in the street.
I hate that the entirety of my time and energy is now exhausted on enriching “investors”. I saw the system for what it is from a young age and fell into all of the traps anyway. The traps are effective, but that does not mean that my political ideology is in alignment with the system that sets them. Still, I acknowledge your point that things cannot change without action, and most times that means violent and illegal action. The system is built to protect itself.
As for your link… Mao Tse-tung killed, brutalised and starved to death more human beings than any other person that has ever lived. MILLIONS dead. If the society you seek to build is based on that same, tired old philosophy then I will fight you every step of the way. It’s a very strange person that looks at the history of China over the last 100 years and decides they’d like to repeat it.
It’s a very strange person that looks at the history of China over the last 100 years and decides they’d like to repeat it.
Yeah, who would ever want to repeat this:
Famines were extremely common in China before the communists came to power and the Chinese people were among the poorest in the world. Mao certainly made mistakes, but these specific, dramatic events have been exaggerated to the point of obscuring the more general trend towards food security and poverty alleviation. Likewise, rural Chinese had no access whatsoever to modern medicine like vaccines, meaning that they were plagued by horrible, preventable diseases. But for some reason my history books neglected to mention things like the wildly successful Barefoot Doctors program, which drastically improved Chinese life expectancy and quality of life. I suppose stuff like that isn’t all that exciting since we take it for granted, but the fact is that no country has ever lifted more people out of poverty and extreme poverty in so short a time as the PRC. And it certainly wasn’t going to happen under the nationalists.
Right, so riding the coattails of industrialization along with every single other country that was involved in WW2 is the direct result of Maoist thought and brutal fake-communist rule? You need to check a map, I think you are lost.
China’s industrialization and rise in life expectancy did not require Mao Zedong thought, but it did require someone who was interested in doing it, and the nationalists weren’t, nor were the invading Japanese, nor were the various warlord factions following the collapse of the Qing, nor were the Qing, nor were the European colonizers. Every one of those factions only wanted to loot the country for the short term benefit of their ruling elite. Any one of them could have accomplished a similar miracle, but they chose not to. Obviously, it was industrialization that brought about the bulk of the benefits, but there are reasons why China had not previously achieved its potential on that front. It would’ve been better if China had been led by someone who didn’t have big brained ideas like killing all the sparrows, but like I said, despite these mistakes the general trend is clearly positive.
Not every country experienced the same rise in life expectancy or industrialization after WWII, no. Even today, many parts of the world experience food insecurity and over 700 million people live in extreme poverty, so I have no idea what you’re on about. Of course, the idea that China would’ve experienced the same level of growth without the CPC is an unfalsifiable counterfactual, but we can plainly see the trend of a lack of growth prior to communist control in the graph I posted.
Here’s what the infamous communist propaganda rag The World Bank has to say:
Over the past 40 years, the number of people in China with incomes below $1.90 per day – the International Poverty Line as defined by the World Bank to track global extreme poverty– has fallen by close to 800 million. With this, China has contributed close to three-quarters of the global reduction in the number of people living in extreme poverty. At China’s current national poverty line, the number of poor fell by 770 million over the same period.
Let me put it another way: how would the world look different to you if China was successful in alleviating poverty vs if it wasn’t? How much information about the life of an average rural Chinese person actually makes its way to your feed? That’s not an accusation or anything, there’s lots of stuff happening everywhere around the world and no one can be expected to keep track of everything. It’s just an observation that there are a lot of people, not just in China but all around the world, whose perspectives don’t get proportionate representation in Western media or high school textbooks. It might be worthwhile to consider whether there are important details that have been omitted or deemphasized in the narrative you were taught.
Oh wait you’re just a condescending dickhead, should have guessed when you complained about brigading and the prevalence of dunks.
Yeah being a debatebro does result in you being treated as such, if this is how you choose to interact with users you disagree with I can understand why you believe hexbears are innately hostile.
Several users engaged with you in a clear and concise and polite manner, providing well-thought out arguments, yet this is how you choose to respond?
As for demonstrating: Yeah me too, but that doesn’t matter at all for an online shotposting forum and instilling a culture were we need to “prove” ourselves by sharing information that makes us easier to dox is fed shit.
As for “brigading” I’ll add onto what @GarbageShoot@hexbear.net says and add that the community c_tye"dunk_tank is for sharing terrible takes found online. It’s not an organising effort, but one of “look at this idiot”. I’ll not deny that it probably brings more attention to some users here, than they otherwise would’ve received, but I gotta be honest and say I can’t really feel bad for them. If they’re shitty enough to aggravate a bunch of people to dunk on them, then that’s on them. It’s not well-meaning libs or whatever that gets posted there’s nor is it simple disagreements. It’s pretty clearly awful people saying awful shit.
As for Map Zedong… There’s plenty to critique the man for, but it’s pretty clear to me you’re just quoting red scare era “black book of communism” misinformation. I’d recommend reading more about the man and the period. If you need pointers I know @robinn2@hexbear.net has a great wealth of knowledge about China.
But consider the following: China had famines every decade until the Maoists took over. China had one famine, which has been the source of a great deal of criticism. If we employed the same level of rigour to all other countries, then the “evil” of China would be like that of a school bully compared to that of the UK, the US and France being serial killers.
The Maoists made use of the Mass Line, which relied heavily on the cooperation of the civilian population, without the aid of which they never could have won. If Mao was so evil, how come the populace supported him?
They managed to come back after long march, having been relegated to a tiny rural region. How did they do this, of the populace did not support them?
The KMT saw immense numbers of defectors to the Maoists, why?
The population grew under the Maoists, and life expectancy exploded, despite apparently both civil war, “totalitarian repression” and deliberate starvation. Yet he apparently murdered millions by decree at the same time.
Tibet is often held up as example of political repression, which strikes me as odd. Before the PLA came to Tibet, it was a slave owning theocracy. Why was it bad to abolish slavery in Tibet?
China is not an area I am well-versed in, so if you wish to have a more rigorous discussion I’d recommend asking questions to @robinn2@hexbear.net or engaging with @Mardoniush@hexbear.net who has already responded to you here. It seems as though she is much more well versed than I on the subject.
There’s also this thread with a lot of good information.
You realise we can access hexbear.net and see the local posts? It’s absolutely coordinated behaviour. Hexbear users post links to a given thread from another instance in chat or chapo or wherever with a suitably inflammatory title along with a call to arms
Do you think we’re having users make accounts on defederated instances? We have a specific rule against “brigading” federated instances because it had like one thread about Ada where it actually happened. This is you jumping at shadows.
Mao Tse-tung
The modern romanization is Zedong, philistine.
killed, brutalised and starved to death more human beings than any other person that has ever lived.
Tell me about how much you aren’t a lib.
If the society you seek to build is based on that same, tired old philosophy then I will fight you every step of the way.
As opposed to what? Anarchism? That’s even older! But no, associating you with anarchists gives you too much credit. Tell us about how we should put more stock in whatever boutique ideology you pseudo-leftist piss sommeliers have cooked up lately instead of the ones that have actually gained ground or even exist outside of the internet.
It’s a very strange person that looks at the history of China over the last 100 years and decides they’d like to repeat it.
It’s a very strange person that talks about “the history of China over the last 100 years” while having themselves studied so little of it.
uwu the mean old hexbears are just so impolite and mean, they just stink up the place and are antagonistic for no reason.
Jesus Christ, what are you, a child? Have your frontal lobes not fused yet, have you not learned how cause and effect act together? You’re being a condescending dickhead, and that’s why people are hostile to you.
Also good luck with any succesful organising if you’re this much of a cantankerous sectarian. I’m sure the revolution will be right around the corner, we just all need to subscribe to your specific ideology. Jesus fucking Christ get a grip and maybe learn a little bit of humility.
You are by the way quoting a translation of Mao Zedong, not the author himself. That translation is outdated.
The “hexbear ideology” is a laughable thing you seem to believe exists. It’s a left unity site you fucking moron, it might do you some good to learn what that means.
This is why Lenin emphasised a party with paid, professional cadre. Workers don’t have the time and have responsibilities to others. It’s not quite as bad as it used to be, but a professional core is still essential.
Join a party that’s only moderately terrible, pay your dues.
As for Mao…it was arguably the least terrible century China has ever had, despite his errors. Most notably leaning too far into the KPAM’s anarchist theory during the Great Leap Forward. (I like the KPAM but they had bad takes like anyone else.)
I agree with your last statement 100%
I am generally against defederation and censorship.
In response to the OP of this topic though, people hate hexbears because of the constant hardcore brigading and the huge inline image abuse.
It’s annoying as fuck. As soon as you smell a “lib”, even though you are usually wrong, it just turns into a massive dogpile on anyone who doesn’t share your identical belief structure.
That isn’t debate, it’s bullying. You have the numbers to pull it off but if it carries on you will absolutely end up defederated from everywhere.
We’re actually 100% correct, just fyi. A lot of people don’t know that about us
Yes, you are absolutely the smartest ones in the room. All rooms. At all times.
I suspect the userbase of hexbear skews extremely young. I too had everything figured out when I was younger.
As opposed to you, who definitely doesn’t roleplay being the “smartest one in the room” and speak in condescending generalizations about a large group of political others. Never ever.
If you are still seriously reading communist theory beyond the age of 20, I’ve got some truly terrible news for you. You should probably stay out of rooms altogether before anyone puts it together for you.
So what big boy books do you like to read, then? Give us your top recommendations.
Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Harry Potter, Turner Diaries
Hot take: I thought 1984 was somewhat alright, but I haven’t read it in a while.
We all know you’re using that isle of man flag as a coward’s version of the afrikaner flag. You’re so god damn bad at this.
Yeah, that had me raising my eyebrows too
I’d like to call it the Brakpan swastika, but that’s harsh on Brakpan.
A) I don’t know the first thing about an Afrikaner flag.
B) I was born there
Try again.
I hope you get the Praxis you are looking for one day.
Mate pull the other one. You write like a yank and you spell like one too. It takes 5 seconds to see every single little thing in your user history is american, not british.
Fooling absolutely nobody.
No surprise they’re shittty, I’ve never met a nice south African.
They’re all arrogant bastards, who hate black people
In Australia even our absolute harshest lockdowns made allowances for millions of “essential” industries.
This you, mate?
Yep. Doesn’t change where I was born. Us filthy “libs” are a bit more mobile than you lot. I’ve lived in a lot of countries, and I’ve visited half the world including China which is why I don’t need to engage any further on this. None of you have a clue what you are talking about. You are singing the praises of a country that is a living hell for 99% of its inhabitants, even moreso than filthy capitalist strongholds.
Seems I have to narc on all my professors, postdocs and PhDs, they all read Marx.
So which one is it: round up all the intellectuals and cast them out to carry out farm labour, or let them sit in their ivory tower and read theory?
Your point was “No adult reads Marx!”, which I disproved readily with people of status and learned people that do.
The funny thing is that one of the professors does actually carry out farm labour, as they are involved in international brigades and works for 30 years for food security with sustainable practices in precarious countries. Did quite a bit of their study in AES countries, too.
I would start with casting you out to do farm labour (which you seem so into) and also having to read/discuss various things, too.
round up the “Passiv income Class defending” intellectuals and cast them out to carry out farm labou AND let them read theory?
no reply … tssk … typical … currently probably franticlly searching for something online he can repeat …
Which Marxist texts have you read, and can you summarize any Marxist ideas without plagiarizing wikipedia?
There’s this reactionary trope that Communism is just something teenagers who have never had real jobs are into, that somehow the basement-dwelling children of 1st world small business owners are able to easily blaze through all The Manifesto, Grundrisse, Anti-Duhring, German ideology, All 3 volumes of Das Kapital, All 3 volumes of Theories of Surplus Value, etc. etc. etc. before they’re old enough to drink, and then after getting an associates degree abandon it because they learned to adult… it’s patently absurd. If anything the type of people in question don’t even begin to question Capitalism until they’re well into their 20s and sufficiently addled with student loan debt and long hours and a bleaker future than their parents.
Okay, explain how the following mathematical formula that’s used to examine the rate of profits of a company, which tends to fall, is invalid and shouldn’t be studied
This is you forgetting that there are actually theoretical texts and not just agitprop like the Manifesto, right?
What a silly statement! It is so ridiculous that it doesn’t even deserve a rebuttal
Yes who would ever want to study the leaders of succesful revolutions? Why should we want to learn from those that managed to fight off the capitalists?
Also that sectarianism is probably working super well for you. Great way to build a mass movement.
You’re just parroting the most basic of chud clichés, but I guess that shouldn’t be surprising when you’re petite bourgeoisie
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that’s right, I only read liberal theory. Slava Hogwarti!
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As opposed to you who is totally self aware about how stupid you are
No, we are all just slightly older than you - the age where you actually do figure everything out for real this time. Big old people just doesn’t want you to know.
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Try another example, but this time try and bully someone into revolutionary thought and see how it goes.
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That is the best, most comprehensive and cohesive reply I’ve received online for over a decade. Please don’t take my lack of any further debate as a sign of disrespect, you’ve actually given me some things to think on.
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Going to a thread on Active isn’t brigading
Uh, there are some anarcho-bidenists, but from what I have seen the record is pretty clear of false positives
Viewing the entire world through the American lens is folly.
i’m not american and i’m fine with calling these people anarcho-bidenists, it’s just a way of saying some anarchists (especially western ones) are actually just radlibs, whether in awareness of it or not
lol - I learned a new word. Thanks.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Radlib
ok it’s weirdly funny in this context that the definition literally mentions joe biden lol
the fact it was posted by SexHaver212 is even better, that’s 100% a former r/CTH user posting right after (?) the democratic primaries
Ignoring that the United States is an imperial hegemon is equally silly.
Gotta colonize 'em all.
I’d rather it didn’t
I am willing to bet that you are speaking from a country that America drags along in its wake, so you remain a bidenist no matter how many snide remarks you make about ze stupid Americans.
That is unfortunately true. How do you break from such an unwanted position? Biden couldn’t even find us on a map.
Lmao you think it’s a dunk that your imperial overlord doesn’t give enough of a shit about your country to learn of its whereabouts?
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Rich coming from a jellied eel eater
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Pies are good food
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Me too on both counts. I’m posting something of an apology. I’ve been a right dick in here.
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Brigading is a made-up reddit thing. It used to be normal for forums to “raid” other forums, and if you couldn’t deal with that, it was on you. However we are not “raiding” there is no organised movement to go somewhere and post on it. We see the same posts pop up in “all”, and we have a large and active userbase, that’s all that’s happening.
Yeah, that bug is getting worked on.
Yeah that’s the story, but it’s not really what I’ve been observing. Plenty of people that disagree with the hexbear userbase have had nice discussions. Generally I see users from other instances post condescending “gotchas” which then, rightly, get dogpiled on. They then cry “foul” as if they didn’t themselves initiate the interaction on those terms. Either that or they will be met by a user willing to engage in good-faith discussion, but they instead choose to continue with condescention. I see a lot of “I’m not reading all that” and “lmao you really believe that?” in response to well-thought out responses, not to mention the many accusations of being a bot. These users are then treated as condescending dickheads, because hexbear has had a lot of issues with wreckers, so there’s a pretty low tolerance for that kinda stuff. Hexbear generally has a hostile culture to bad-faith debatebro tactics.
Disagreements are common, so it’s not really that. It’s just a question of wether they’re engaging in good faith or not. I see plenty of users post about stuff that’s well outside the general culture, that then have a nice discussion.
Regarding being “wrong about lib” I’m gonna disagree again. I think you have a different definition of what that is. Oftentimes we think of ourselves as being “leftists” or whatever, but by our words and actions we support the current (neo-liberal) system. Then it does not matter what we identify as, if we’re still furthering something else. If you’re interested in that kinda stuff you might want to read Combat Liberalism. It’s pretty short, so it’s a nice and quick primer.
You realise we can access hexbear.net and see the local posts? It’s absolutely coordinated behaviour. Hexbear users post links to a given thread from another instance in chat or chapo or wherever with a suitably inflammatory title along with a call to arms along the lines of “Look at this terrible liberal take, OMG the entire cookie baking community is full of bigots and transphobes. Cookie bakers are bourgeois as hell!”. Cue your entire community piling in to the cookie baking community to completely destroy all discussion of baking cookies until they get bored and move on.
You spend a lot of time talking about good faith discussions but from my perspective it’s the hexbear community that isn’t acting in good faith in most instances.
I accept this, and I am guilty of this to the extreme. I was extremely politically active in my late teens and early 20’s, and active in the labor movement. I have the criminal record as proof. I’m old as fuck now, and I have several people that depend on me NOT being in jail, and to continue pretending to be a functional member of our neo-liberal society to keep them from starving in the street.
I hate that the entirety of my time and energy is now exhausted on enriching “investors”. I saw the system for what it is from a young age and fell into all of the traps anyway. The traps are effective, but that does not mean that my political ideology is in alignment with the system that sets them. Still, I acknowledge your point that things cannot change without action, and most times that means violent and illegal action. The system is built to protect itself.
As for your link… Mao Tse-tung killed, brutalised and starved to death more human beings than any other person that has ever lived. MILLIONS dead. If the society you seek to build is based on that same, tired old philosophy then I will fight you every step of the way. It’s a very strange person that looks at the history of China over the last 100 years and decides they’d like to repeat it.
Yeah, who would ever want to repeat this:
Famines were extremely common in China before the communists came to power and the Chinese people were among the poorest in the world. Mao certainly made mistakes, but these specific, dramatic events have been exaggerated to the point of obscuring the more general trend towards food security and poverty alleviation. Likewise, rural Chinese had no access whatsoever to modern medicine like vaccines, meaning that they were plagued by horrible, preventable diseases. But for some reason my history books neglected to mention things like the wildly successful Barefoot Doctors program, which drastically improved Chinese life expectancy and quality of life. I suppose stuff like that isn’t all that exciting since we take it for granted, but the fact is that no country has ever lifted more people out of poverty and extreme poverty in so short a time as the PRC. And it certainly wasn’t going to happen under the nationalists.
Right, so riding the coattails of industrialization along with every single other country that was involved in WW2 is the direct result of Maoist thought and brutal fake-communist rule? You need to check a map, I think you are lost.
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China’s industrialization and rise in life expectancy did not require Mao Zedong thought, but it did require someone who was interested in doing it, and the nationalists weren’t, nor were the invading Japanese, nor were the various warlord factions following the collapse of the Qing, nor were the Qing, nor were the European colonizers. Every one of those factions only wanted to loot the country for the short term benefit of their ruling elite. Any one of them could have accomplished a similar miracle, but they chose not to. Obviously, it was industrialization that brought about the bulk of the benefits, but there are reasons why China had not previously achieved its potential on that front. It would’ve been better if China had been led by someone who didn’t have big brained ideas like killing all the sparrows, but like I said, despite these mistakes the general trend is clearly positive.
Not every country experienced the same rise in life expectancy or industrialization after WWII, no. Even today, many parts of the world experience food insecurity and over 700 million people live in extreme poverty, so I have no idea what you’re on about. Of course, the idea that China would’ve experienced the same level of growth without the CPC is an unfalsifiable counterfactual, but we can plainly see the trend of a lack of growth prior to communist control in the graph I posted.
Here’s what the infamous communist propaganda rag The World Bank has to say:
Let me put it another way: how would the world look different to you if China was successful in alleviating poverty vs if it wasn’t? How much information about the life of an average rural Chinese person actually makes its way to your feed? That’s not an accusation or anything, there’s lots of stuff happening everywhere around the world and no one can be expected to keep track of everything. It’s just an observation that there are a lot of people, not just in China but all around the world, whose perspectives don’t get proportionate representation in Western media or high school textbooks. It might be worthwhile to consider whether there are important details that have been omitted or deemphasized in the narrative you were taught.
Oh wait you’re just a condescending dickhead, should have guessed when you complained about brigading and the prevalence of dunks.
Yeah being a debatebro does result in you being treated as such, if this is how you choose to interact with users you disagree with I can understand why you believe hexbears are innately hostile.
Several users engaged with you in a clear and concise and polite manner, providing well-thought out arguments, yet this is how you choose to respond?
Oh, I didn’t know you were the arbitor of what was fake-communist rule
As for demonstrating: Yeah me too, but that doesn’t matter at all for an online shotposting forum and instilling a culture were we need to “prove” ourselves by sharing information that makes us easier to dox is fed shit.
As for “brigading” I’ll add onto what @GarbageShoot@hexbear.net says and add that the community c_tye"dunk_tank is for sharing terrible takes found online. It’s not an organising effort, but one of “look at this idiot”. I’ll not deny that it probably brings more attention to some users here, than they otherwise would’ve received, but I gotta be honest and say I can’t really feel bad for them. If they’re shitty enough to aggravate a bunch of people to dunk on them, then that’s on them. It’s not well-meaning libs or whatever that gets posted there’s nor is it simple disagreements. It’s pretty clearly awful people saying awful shit.
As for Map Zedong… There’s plenty to critique the man for, but it’s pretty clear to me you’re just quoting red scare era “black book of communism” misinformation. I’d recommend reading more about the man and the period. If you need pointers I know @robinn2@hexbear.net has a great wealth of knowledge about China.
But consider the following: China had famines every decade until the Maoists took over. China had one famine, which has been the source of a great deal of criticism. If we employed the same level of rigour to all other countries, then the “evil” of China would be like that of a school bully compared to that of the UK, the US and France being serial killers.
The Maoists made use of the Mass Line, which relied heavily on the cooperation of the civilian population, without the aid of which they never could have won. If Mao was so evil, how come the populace supported him?
They managed to come back after long march, having been relegated to a tiny rural region. How did they do this, of the populace did not support them?
The KMT saw immense numbers of defectors to the Maoists, why?
The population grew under the Maoists, and life expectancy exploded, despite apparently both civil war, “totalitarian repression” and deliberate starvation. Yet he apparently murdered millions by decree at the same time.
Tibet is often held up as example of political repression, which strikes me as odd. Before the PLA came to Tibet, it was a slave owning theocracy. Why was it bad to abolish slavery in Tibet?
China is not an area I am well-versed in, so if you wish to have a more rigorous discussion I’d recommend asking questions to @robinn2@hexbear.net or engaging with @Mardoniush@hexbear.net who has already responded to you here. It seems as though she is much more well versed than I on the subject.
There’s also this thread with a lot of good information.
Do you think we’re having users make accounts on defederated instances? We have a specific rule against “brigading” federated instances because it had like one thread about Ada where it actually happened. This is you jumping at shadows.
The modern romanization is Zedong, philistine.
Tell me about how much you aren’t a lib.
As opposed to what? Anarchism? That’s even older! But no, associating you with anarchists gives you too much credit. Tell us about how we should put more stock in whatever boutique ideology you pseudo-leftist piss sommeliers have cooked up lately instead of the ones that have actually gained ground or even exist outside of the internet.
It’s a very strange person that talks about “the history of China over the last 100 years” while having themselves studied so little of it.
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uwu the mean old hexbears are just so impolite and mean, they just stink up the place and are antagonistic for no reason.
Jesus Christ, what are you, a child? Have your frontal lobes not fused yet, have you not learned how cause and effect act together? You’re being a condescending dickhead, and that’s why people are hostile to you.
Also good luck with any succesful organising if you’re this much of a cantankerous sectarian. I’m sure the revolution will be right around the corner, we just all need to subscribe to your specific ideology. Jesus fucking Christ get a grip and maybe learn a little bit of humility.
You are by the way quoting a translation of Mao Zedong, not the author himself. That translation is outdated.
The “hexbear ideology” is a laughable thing you seem to believe exists. It’s a left unity site you fucking moron, it might do you some good to learn what that means.
I bey you think this “political freedom” should apply also to Nazis. Fuck off with that bullshit
This is why Lenin emphasised a party with paid, professional cadre. Workers don’t have the time and have responsibilities to others. It’s not quite as bad as it used to be, but a professional core is still essential.
Join a party that’s only moderately terrible, pay your dues.
As for Mao…it was arguably the least terrible century China has ever had, despite his errors. Most notably leaning too far into the KPAM’s anarchist theory during the Great Leap Forward. (I like the KPAM but they had bad takes like anyone else.)
Millions dead lmfao. I bet you heard that on your Fox News
I’m not here to debate libs and you can’t make me.
Are the libs in the room with us right now?
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Yes, you are the lib in the room
Can I tell you a secret?
I see liberal people.
Liberal people like, in corporations? in governments?
like, above us in the comment chainDamn, you missed an opportunity; Cole’s next line in the Sixth Sense with “liberals” instead of “dead” is fire:
You can use U block origin to block the emotes. I do that for the ones that bother me.